MX-5 Miata Forum > NA/NB (1990-2005) Miata > NA (1990-1997) General Discussion > 1.8 - broken crankshaft bolt.
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NoahsMyBro
10th November 2022, 00:16
:mad: :cry: :confused: :(
Sunday evening I began disassembling the top and front of my engine in order to replace my timing belt + water pump, and also overhaul the cooling system (new hoses, thermostat, coolant), and replace the accessory belts.
At the end of the day I'd gotten to the crankshaft bolt. It was difficult to move so I doused it with all the PB Blaster I had in my garage, used a breaker bar to move it a small amount, and called it quits for the day.
Monday I didn't touch it.
Tuesday I bought 2 more cans of PB Blaster. After work I went out to the garage two or three times and each time I moved the bolt a little bit more, and each time I drowned the sucker in more PBB.
Today I went to the garage a few more times and each time managed to move the bolt just a little bit.
And then I went flying backward across my garage and into the wall when the bolthead and top 1/2" of the bolt snapped off of the rest of the bolt.
===============
So now I've got most of the bolt still stuck inside the crank, nothing protruding and no way to grip it, and a queasy and sick feeling in my stomach, worried that I've just made a very costly mistake and killed my car, the best purchase I've ever made imo.
===============
I've done some searching and some reading and I *THINK* my next step will be to:
unbolt the anti-sway bar in order to get it out of the way,
unbolt the air conditioner condenser to move it out of the way (is this something I can do? Without opening the lines and losing the freon?),
once there is ample room and clearance to the front of the engine drilling a small pilot hole in the center of the broken bolt,
and then slowly increasing the size of the drill bits and continue drilling the center hole in the bolt until I'm able to eventually remove the bolt.
use thread chaser to make sure the threaded hole is clean before installing a new bolt and torquing it down to the proper spec.
Does this sound like a sane, reasonable approach?
Is there a better approach I haven't considered?
I do have a heat gun. I don't have a torch and have never used one.
I don't have welding equipment and don't know the first thing about welding.
I have continued to douse the bolt with PBB. I'm hoping (but not really believing) that it will help, eventually.
Am I being a fool to continue tackling this myself? When I decided to buy this car I very much intended to do as much maintenance/repair work as possible myself for this car. Calling in for help from my mechanic, begging him to make a house call in this case (his shop is literally .5 miles from my house), will feel like quitting, giving up, very emasculating. I really want to successfully tackle this myself, but should I accept my limitations and let the pro save me?
Thanks.
gtxhawaii
10th November 2022, 02:07
#1. Throw away the PB Blaster. It tests worst of all labeled 'penetrant lubes'. Slightly better than WD40, which isn't even a lube. Liquid Wrench is widely available. Best by test is home brew 50/50 Acetone/ATF. Keep in metal cans, metal lid, effective gasket, or the acetone evaporates out quickly. Make up small amounts if no quality container is available.
But, that ship sailed with the snapped bolt. If you broke the bolt with a breaker bar, and aren't a power lifter, it was already damaged some way.
For next time: Once you get Any movement with stuck threaded fasteners, try a small back movement. This helps clear clogged threads. Forward a bit, back a little less. Till forward motion resistance is greatly reduced. Breaker bars do this well, ratchets tempt one to pass on the back turn to clear threads. No gold stars for fast removals, only penalties if you hurry and snap a part.
For now, radiator, sway bar and condenser out of the way. Unbolt sway mounts, then just swing it down on the end links. Radiator and fans probably are out now. Or, make it so. You might get the condenser to the side or bent somehow on the intact lines without losing the AC charge. Shorter drill motors exist, finding one simplifies bolt access. Electrical workers use small head drills for wiring holes in close studs. Take it easy if a smaller drill. Overheating the tool stops work.
You are on the right track with a Carefully centered punch mark, and progressively bigger drills. Try to drill straight down the axis of the stub.
The last guy probably used too aggressive of a thread lock. Heat helps the mediums, Hards take remarkable amounts of heat. Even propane torches are inadequate. MAPP, maybe. Usual minimal heat tool is Oxy/Acetylene torch. Locite Hards take up to 500ºF to soften (3 different products, with individual temps), and harden quickly as they cool. Why thread lock makers recommend only Mediums if hand tools are expected to take stuff apart safely. I won't have a Hard thread lock in my tool kit. The heat of drilling may help here, but the crank nose metal mass quickly cools it again when you remove the drill. An EasyOut is the normal tool. You want the biggest hole you dare drill without ruining the threads in the crank nose, for a straight spline EasyOut. A reverse twist drill has some hope of 'catching' and backing the stub out if you get the bolt stub hot enough to soften any thread lock. Corrosion is mildly helped by heat, but not like thermoplastic thread locks.
I have a Craftsman set of extractors, with reverse twist spiral edged ridges to grab inside drilled out bolts. Snapping either tool is a disaster, as only Really expensive drills will work on these hardened steel tools. Some machine shops have fancy welders that can attach an extension to a busted tool, but you have to find them, they normally aren't mobile.
https://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Industrial-Tools-53535-Extractor/dp/B00004YOBF/ref=sr_1_10?crid=21YXMV6NS36PN&keywords=bolt+extractor+sets&qid=1668058135&sprefix=bolt+extractor+sets%2Caps%2C206&sr=8-10 For about what I have.
Type in "bolt extractor sets" in Amazon search for a whole page of these tools. None duplicate the set I have, the link above looks adequate. The aggressive angle of the splines means you don't want too weak of stub wall, or the extractor just pushes the wall and male threading into the crank nose female threading. If you have a true machine supply store locally, buy some Seriously good drills, High heat tolerance, HARD steel. Tell the counter guy what you need done, expensive drills are worth the purchase, as opposed to buying a hand full at a local hardware store and dulling them in short order. Tell him the busted stub is at least Class 8.8, may be Class 10.9. And you need some cutting oil with the quality drill bits. Try to find the real stuff, 3in1 or sewing machine oil sorta works, you need the best.
Once the stub is out, the crank threading usually is good, your car is Not dead. A Thread Chaser is far better than a tap. Looser tolerances mean less original metal is cut from probably roll threads in the crank nose. Roll threads are stronger for the surface work, but have a different profile than sharp corner cut threading, which taps are cut to fit. Loctite Chisel (reg.) is a spray can of thread lock solvent. Acetone is second choice. I normally use a good (used) crank bolt to make shade tree thread chasers. If the thread chasers locally are as overpriced and here($50 and up!) I'd buy two new crank bolts, turn one into your thread chaser. I run 2 or 3 cuts lengthwise down the threaded shaft, leaving as sharp of edges on the threading as I can, using a Dremel cutting disc. I usually use two discs, instant glued together so they aren't as likely to shatter. SERIOUS EYE PROTECTION, with any Dremel cutting disc, or risk the rest of your life being blind. Idiots prove this to themselves every day, don't be one of those guys.
Going back together, spec torque is 116-122 ft-lbs in clean Wet threads. Medium Loctite mimics the lubricity of 'assembly oil', plain mineral straight 30w. If not using thread lock, a wipe of a mildly oiled shop rag on the new bolt. If thread lock, you want all the threads wet, but no more. Douching the area can hydrolock the bolt in the blind hole, and hydrolocked bolts snap below spec torque all the time. Same as bottoming a too long bolt in a short hole.
2002tiitomx5
10th November 2022, 07:42
Get the help. You wont regret it if the mechanic is competent.
3MiataFamily
10th November 2022, 07:56
The crank bolt breaking is the absolute worst case scenario....has happened to me twice in the last 15 years....I replaced the motor both times. One on a 1.6 and one a 1.8
fxntime
10th November 2022, 15:56
How far out is your snout from the engine? If the pulley is off then this is the perfect scenario for an induction heater. You can put an immense amount of heat in the snout and never any surrounding metal warm. If broke off flush, you may be able to weld a nut onto the threaded bolt or as suggested, drill it out, preferably with a reverse twist drill bit carefully.
If anything, an induction heater can make the snout TOO hot if you are not careful, 500f is a breeze to reach.
toolinalong
10th November 2022, 18:07
My thinking is an previous owner used "red locktite" on the bolt . You can drill it but the remains of the bolt are still glued in . Re build with a new/used crank or a good used engine if you can find one .
Just curious , did the timing belt cog come off or is it stuck too ?
gtxhawaii
11th November 2022, 00:32
Heat softened Hard thread lock does not 'glue' anything permanently. Inadequate heat is not a solution. That the bolt moved at all before snapping is a good sign.
Chas H
11th November 2022, 01:15
How far out is your snout from the engine? If the pulley is off then this is the perfect scenario for an induction heater. You can put an immense amount of heat in the snout and never any surrounding metal warm. If broke off flush, you may be able to weld a nut onto the threaded bolt or as suggested, drill it out, preferably with a reverse twist drill bit carefully.
If anything, an induction heater can make the snout TOO hot if you are not careful, 500f is a breeze to reach.
This is good advice. I just bought a mid power -1000 watt- hand held induction heater; it comes with a few different heating elements and I bought a few extra including some straight elements that can be fashioned into the desired shape.
I'm gonna use it to heat some very stuck cylinder head studs which reside at the bottom of a bathtub like block.
Perhaps a local shop can help you with one.
no rotors
11th November 2022, 12:35
This is good advice.
I just bought a mid power -1000 watt- hand held induction heater;
it comes with a few different heating elements and I bought a few extra including some straight elements that can be fashioned into the desired shape.
Have a link to that?
I'd be interested in looking into one of those.
Chas H
11th November 2022, 13:28
"1000 watt- hand held induction heater"
I bought this-
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09262QC6G?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
NoahsMyBro
11th November 2022, 15:45
Just wanted to leave an update here for you all so you don’t think I bailed on the thread.
I’m traveling right now so can’t deal with the car at the moment and won’t have meaningful updated info to share for several days.
On my way out of town I stopped at my mechanics to get his advice.
He can’t do house calls even if I decided I wanted that (as I expected).
He thinks this is certainly possible to recover from.
His recommendation:
1) carefully drill a pilot hole in the center of the bolt. Begin small, and gradually increase the size of the bit.
2) use a map gas torch - yellow tank, available from Home Depot, to heat up the bolt
3) use a quality, not cheap junk, Boot extractor to try and remove the bolt. He showed me a few different types. I am probably going to get the Ridgid 35550 style extractor, maybe also one if the 4-finned square/fluted types.
Will drop the sway bar, and maybe the ac condenser, to get more room for the drill.
If all of that works out then once I’ve succeeded I’ll deal with getting a new crank bolt, thread chaser, etc…
Wish me luck.
gtxhawaii
11th November 2022, 19:27
Any drill motor has to be shaped to allow the drill bit to lie exactly on the long axis of the snapped bolt stub. If the hole is crooked, you risk drilling into the crank nose threading. My favorite large drill motor likely won't do this. My backup probably fits in there.
MAPP is not expensive in cylinders, but requires MAPP compatible torch heads. Propane heads won't work. MAPP heads are fine on Propane cylinders. I'm not liking the cost of MAPP heads, maybe a friend has a loner. OR, local parts houses do tool rentals, for either MAPP heads, or the Nice induction heaters. Ebay has the same heater as the above Amazon link, not much saving for new, a bit more for a new looking used set.
Past threads have been mixed on MAPP for difficult extractions like a snapped crank bolt. Success and frustration are both found. I suspect the wider flame nozzles for heat shrinking may be less successful over a finer tip welding nozzle.
A few minutes research online suggested the linked induction heater deals better with large metal heat sinks like a crankshaft nose. With a partner holding the heater, any time lag (letting key parts lose heat to the large crankshaft mass) to application of a power tool or breaker bar on an extractor, can be minimized. This lag complicates use of less capable heat sources, particularly Propane. At $160-$180 a set, rental electrical induction tools really look attractive enough to call around within reasonable driving distance. Parts of NJ have everything imaginable, other parts are pretty rural. Possibly a friend who does paintless dent removal has one. One of the induction tools prime uses, specially in hail country.
MAPP/Oxygen is a whole other tool. Air is only 20% O2, pure O2 in a cylinder, and dual gas torch head, jumps flame temps remarkably. This puts MAPP in the same range as Acetylene/Oxygen, the standard for serious ferrous metal welding. The down side is you can do more damage with the serious welding tools.
intel_core22
11th November 2022, 20:46
It would be great if you post the pictures of the broken bolt, so we can see what you're dealing with and how much meat on it.
L. Vader
11th November 2022, 20:49
One caution about using cheaper bolt extractors - if you break one off in the drilled hole, they can be a huge pain in the butt to remove! I've never been successful drilling one out after I've broken it, although I did manage to chip one out of the hole with a centre punch (not recommended!).
NoahsMyBro
11th November 2022, 23:29
Photo of the patient and the top of the bolt that broke off.
The bolt is not protruding at all.
gtxhawaii
12th November 2022, 06:12
Looks to me like the bolt snapped right at the engaged edge of the female threads of the crank nose. There, or the top of the male threading, would seem the most likely, though I've seen some fasteners neck out and fail closer to the base of the head.
For grins and giggles (cleaned up for public consumption) look at the face of the bolt that came away. Any corrosion on the broken face means it already had a crack, and that rusted before you even started to remove the bolt.
L. Vader
12th November 2022, 13:51
Photo of the patient and the top of the bolt that broke off.
The bolt is not protruding at all.
Based on that photo, I would start by picking a drill that just barely fits inside the crank sprocket hole and drill just until you get a 'centre' dimple started, then go to your starter drill bit size and work your way up. That should get you a pretty good centre point (better than eyeyballing a centre punch).
Question for everyone - if there is red loctite, does the bolt need to be hot when you try to break it free or is just heating it to 500F enough to break the bond?
Lance Schall
12th November 2022, 14:12
Based on that photo, I would start by picking a drill that just barely fits inside the crank sprocket hole and drill just until you get a 'centre' dimple started, then go to your starter drill bit size and work your way up. That should get you a pretty good centre point (better than eyeyballing a centre punch).
Question for everyone - if there is red loctite, does the bolt need to be hot when you try to break it free or is just heating it to 500F enough to break the bond?Your idea is a decent one, but with a sharp drill bit you'd risk cutting the sprocket. I'd find a lathe and A2 tool steel and make a drill bushing with a hole for smaller drill bit. Bushing will also make the hole straighter as well as centered. I'd step up the size of the hole in the drill bushing as I increased the size of the drill bit.
For Loctite 263 or similar you have to keep the Loctite hot while working. It will re-solidify to original strength as it cools. That said, if the bolt were intact and this large, I suspect you'd be able to overpower the Loctite. without heating, without breaking the head off.
Keldog
12th November 2022, 19:28
Your idea is a decent one, but with a sharp drill bit you'd risk cutting the sprocket. I'd find a lathe and A2 tool steel and make a drill bushing with a hole for smaller drill bit. Bushing will also make the hole straighter as well as centered. I'd step up the size of the hole in the drill bushing as I increased the size of the drill bit.
That's a really good idea for a pilot hole. Sort of a "homemade drill guide". Instead of making a bushing out of stock steel, why not use the leftover, unthreaded portion of the broken bolt. It's already the same size as the crank nose hole. All you need is a drill press to get it straight and you would also get a better idea of what you are drilling into. I would drill the pilot hole as big as you can get it leaving very little threaded portion to remove. Instead of a standard bolt extractor, try a torx bit hammered into the hole.
MarbleCanyon
12th November 2022, 20:00
Using a drilled bolt as a pilot is an old mechanics' trick. I could not see in the photo, but are there any threads available inside the crank nose? If so, you can thread your new "pilot" into the crank, then simply follow the graduated drill bit strategy mentioned above
toolinalong
12th November 2022, 20:06
Did you folks notice the key way ? It looks FUBAR to me .
https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=389095&d=1668223659
3MiataFamily
12th November 2022, 20:35
Did you folks notice the key way ? It looks FUBAR to me .
https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=389095&d=1668223659
Good catch...more problems than just a broken crank bolt here
Keldog
12th November 2022, 21:18
Did you folks notice the key way ? It looks FUBAR to me .
https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=389095&d=1668223659
No. I was focused on broken bolt and problem solving. :ohno:
gtxhawaii
13th November 2022, 08:08
Did you folks notice the key way ? It looks FUBAR to me .
https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=389095&d=1668223659
Lighting doesn't help, with the shadow over the TB cog keyway. Either the crank needed a Loctite Fix last time, and the worker overtorqued the bolt, and used a hard thread lock in ignorance a better approach, or the bolt cracked and lost clamp on the cog, when then was hammering the key and keyway, but this disassembly caught it early, and Now needs a Loctite Fix.
Cog likely is jammed on the damaged key, and will need an impact tool on the sides of teeth to turn it clockwise to free it up. I like end grain hardwood for attempting damage free impact loadings on cog teeth. Really stuck cogs (corroded Big Nose tight fitting ones) may require more destructive tools between hammer and cog teeth. That was a fun afternoon, exhausted two of us. Ruined several tools in the process.
huesmann
13th November 2022, 11:40
Drift punch for a starter dimple.
toolinalong
13th November 2022, 18:41
Might be a good idea to try to remove the crank timing belt cog first . It is probably glued on with a previous key way repair ? ...
NoahsMyBro
14th November 2022, 12:09
I've been out of town since last week and haven't had a chance yet to return to the car.
Also, I'm frankly very discouraged, depressed, and de-motivated since the crank bolt broke Wednesday evening. Realistically I haven't had any time to do anything anyway, but I'm definitely in a procrastinating frame of mind regarding this thing.
I snapped a few addl photos of the crank gear/cog and keyway this morning; hopefully that will literally shed more light on things.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52499982153_91394fc35c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZf8C6)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2nZf8C6) by Steve Jacobs (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61383932@N00/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52499425531_86dc691572.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZchaa)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2nZchaa) by Steve Jacobs (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61383932@N00/), on Flickr
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52499425466_54b550fa5f.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZch93)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2nZch93) by Steve Jacobs (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61383932@N00/), on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/61383932@N00/shares/2e734B1317
huesmann
14th November 2022, 12:52
Wow, that keyway is...wide.
3MiataFamily
14th November 2022, 13:11
You definitely have two separate and difficult issues here...badly damaged keyway and the broken bolt. Even if you had gotten the bolt out intact, you would be facing the damaged keyway problem...and that one is bad. I have seen, and fixed similar, but it's not an easy fix or guaranteed to hold u over the long term.
Time to cut your losses and look for a replacement motor.
NoahsMyBro
14th November 2022, 13:15
Ok. You guys are really giving me a sick stomach here.
1) does it appear that I caused this damage, and if so what did I do wrong?
2) everything was fine before I decided to take things apart to change the timing belt and water pump. How/why could the engine be running just fine for the past 5 years, 40k miles since I bought the car, if there was pre-existing damage?
Lance Schall
14th November 2022, 13:31
Looks to me like the cog is welded to the crankshaft.
A one way repair left as a booby trap for the next guy.
MarbleCanyon
14th November 2022, 13:56
If lance is correct, one way forward would be to accept that the crank seal is leaking, but not repairable, put on a new belt/water pump, etc., and just drive the car. Since a lot of the work to remove and replace the bolt has been done, might as well extract the bolt, replace it, and button everything back up without trying to fix the keyway.
Could go a long way and time like this.
no rotors
14th November 2022, 13:56
Since you say it ran well given what we see in the photos, you may want to find TDC on cylinder #1 using a dowel, etc., and see how that correlates to the position of the half-moon TDC mark on the crankshaft's timing cog.
If the timing mark is where it should be when #1 is at TDC, I think Lance may be correct about the cog being welded on. If so, then the keyway damage is irrelevant.
If all of that's the case, then what MarbleCanyon says is a good idea.
Lance Schall
14th November 2022, 14:09
If it was mine, I'd buy a new crankshaft for about $500 and stick it in. Budget another $1500 for engine refresh at shop, R&R the engine myself and there you go.
Sure, its $2000-$2500, but you get a new engine good for another 10 years. Or throw the car away and start over. Where are you going to get a nice replacement car for $2500?
NoahsMyBro
14th November 2022, 14:18
If it was mine, I'd buy a new crankshaft for about $500 and stick it in. Budget another $1500 for engine refresh at shop, R&R the engine myself and there you go.
Sure, its $2000-$2500, but you get a new engine good for another 10 years. Or throw the car away and start over. Where are you going to get a nice replacement car for $2500?
“R&R engine myself“
By that do you mean remove the pistons, rings, valves, etc…, clean, polish, essentially rebuild the engine?
That’s beyond my skills.
Or did you mean remove and reinstall the engine? That I’ve never done, but seems less intimidating to me.
- in any case, I appreciate all of you guys’ advice, but for the moment I need to attend to work. Otherwise I’ll have no $$$ for any of this!
Lance Schall
14th November 2022, 14:26
Yes, pull the engine out, deliver it and the new crankshaft to a machine shop. Pick it up 2 weeks later, write them a check, take the engine home and put it back in your car. You could have the shop source the new crankshaft too, just don't let them go too far over $500 (even for a refurbished one). I've seen new from the dealer prices like $1500. No need for that.
gtxhawaii
14th November 2022, 17:52
Before any decisions, do as suggested above, and measure exact amount of discrepancy of cog alignment on the crank nose. TDC for pistons 1 and 4 is your reference. Where the timing mark on the refitted accessory belt pulley sits shows if/how much the cog is off correct registration of cog keyway to crank nose keyway. If welded or hard loctiteed with the original key in place, but badly damaged, one hopes the cog is now firmly attached, and One Tooth OFF. Or, they realigned the cog to proper registration, and the cog and crank keyways sit properly in relation to each other. Leaving assembly of the engine after removing the snapped bolt stub.
You up close, a strong light, a loope or magnifying glass, and liberal use of brake spray cleaner to clear out all debris, oil, etc., may offer more information on the cog/crank history and current relationship. This is important info, and will inform your decisions, unless you simply throw up your hands and abandon the car. Which is certainly not warranted by the known information so far.
I don't see anything you did wrong to damage the car, other than trust it was as represented when you bought it (No telling which previous owner did the deed), and appeared to be, a normal engine ready for standard maintenance. A more cautious approach on removing a badly stuck crank bolt is great HINDsight, not something most would expect being needed. I've snapped a few stuck or weakened threaded fasteners (thermostat cover bolts are Usually badly corroded out of sight!), and HOPE I stay aware of what I'm feeling, and remember to back a difficult bolt to free any buildup in the threading, as soon as it stays difficult and doesn't free immediately.
3MiataFamily
17th November 2022, 21:20
Any update on this?
There are some of us out here in Miata land that are curious
NoahsMyBro
17th November 2022, 21:24
Sorry - no substantial updates to share yet.
Last night my helper friend and I began drilling the bolt.
We started with very small bits and very gradually increased in diameter until we were using a bit that was probably about half the diameter of the bolt itself.
We started very centered, unfortunately by the end of the night the hole was very off-center, with the outer edge Nearly to the edge of the bolt.
And the hole is all the way through the bolt.
We then tried to use a bolt extractor and the bolt still didn’t budge.
We are going to resume work in about five minutes. Tonight we’re going to try using a map torch to hear the bolt up and hopefully get it removed.
Wish me luck!
NoahsMyBro
18th November 2022, 03:08
UPDATE
Just before 9pm tonight we resumed trying to remove the bottom half of the crank bolt from the inside of the crankshaft.
At least 24 hours before wed sprayed Kroil on the bolt, after drilling a hole through the middle.
The bolt would still not budge when we used some bolt extractors.
Next we used a map torch (and I DID have a fire extinguisher standing in there for right next to me) and heated the sucker up to about 400°f. It didnt seem to want to get any hotter. Shortly above 400°f my friend and torch carrier moved the flame just a tiny bit below the bolt hole and I quickly got my breaker bar and extractor on the bolt and tried again to move the bolt.
Still no movement.
At this point we were stumped. Not knowing what else to do we continued drilling out the middle of the bolt , first to try and even out the hole and then to continue hollowing out the bolt until we could collapse the sides in to the middle and away from the inner walls of the crankshaft.
Eventually we had the bolt almost entirely hollowed out. STILL COULDNT get the bolt - now barely a sleeve - to move.
We finally resorted to finding small, narrow and pointy tools like awls and tiny bolt extractors and hammering them into the edge of the bolt to try and get them between the outer edge of the bolt and the crankshaft wall. The turning point came when we managed to get an extractor wedged in between the side of the bolt and the crankshaft, and then twisted the extractor using vise grips.
Cracking sounds occurred! A small section of the bolt was now oh so slightly separated from the crankshaft.
We continued working to get the bolt separated from the crankshaft.
Finally at around 1am we managed to reduce the bolt!!!
I have no expectation that the crankshaft threads are still perfect. Im hopeful they arent damaged too much though.
NEXT:
1) try to remove the crank cog.
2) Im going to order a new crankshaft bolt and a thread chaser. (Need to figure out what size thread chaser I need and find where to buy it.)
3) Im going to clean out the threads as best as I can, and will then see if I can screw in and out the new bolt smoothly.
4) assuming the bolt feeds in smoothly, Ill order a new harmonic balancer, new key, and new cog, and proceed with the rest of the job.
note: Im having trouble getting the images to show tonight, posting this from my phone. Its too late and Im too tired to deal with that tonight Will try to fix later.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/4p3H2570j5
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/84oM6aev57
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/66h21T65c5
gtxhawaii
18th November 2022, 04:52
The only essential ingredient to success, is a refusal to give up. Props!
I've fought stuck cogs on BNC, which fit much tighter than on Short Nose Cranks. I recommend a gear puller, and making deep grooves on opposing (Or 3 evenly spaced, if your gear puller has 3 arms) sides for purchase. Wall to the puller should be 'vertical', if not leaning back, so the puller teeth don't slip. We went another way, as my puller was 30 miles away. Hours of beating on tools set against the sides of cog teeth eventually freed the corrosion-welded cog from the crank. A puller is Much easier. Cut with a 3" rotary cutter, about $20 at Harbor Freight, if you don't own one. Buy extra cutting discs! Dremels 'work' but will cost hours and many cutting discs to clear out the puller grooves. Or, you may get lucky and it dislodges fairly easily. It Isn't going to turn if the key inside has substantial shape remaining. It MAY back (go clockwise) till the key is aligned again. Going further risks damaging the normally still good driver side of the crank nose keyway, an important reference to realign parts on reassembly.
Color of gunk left in the threads? Curious minds . . . Use the most magnification you have available.
My files say Big Nose Crank bolts are M14x1.5 thread. Get that size Thread Chaser. (In your heart of hearts, you Knew This.) In extremis, a Tap is useable, but removes a lot more metal that doesn't need to be taken. This loosens the fit of the new crank bolt, and if rolled threads, removes the strongest part, the work hardened surface of the female threading. Start thread cleanup Carefully. The better the cutting tool is aligned with the long axis of the threading, the less chance of a mishap, and more damage. As with any thread work, back the tool every little bit to clear crud and chips where the cutting is happening. this is more excitement than you signed up for, but it looks to end in a Good Story.
huesmann
18th November 2022, 09:09
Could you drill and tap 3-4 holes in the cog to use as leverage, i.e. drill matching holes in a plate that you place across the snout, thread the bolts through the plate into the cog, and screw them gradually in to pull the cog off the snout?
NoahsMyBro
18th November 2022, 14:18
...
Color of gunk left in the threads? Curious minds . . . Use the most magnification you have available.
...
Will try to take care of that after work. This challenge has led to my discovering the "Mag. Light" iPhone app. It is MARVELOUS.
Anyway, I've been unable to get pics of the bolt that accurately show it to my satisfaction, but here are a few more. It *looks* to me like the bolt was simply rusted to the threads in the crank, but it was really, really impossible to free up:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52508666015_ef3c86668b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/42772N4y4f)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52508461844_91bc015d7b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZZAkE)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52508188916_617325e04c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2nZYcd1)
Lance Schall
18th November 2022, 19:30
.... a Tap is useable, but removes a lot more metal that doesn't need to be taken. This loosens the fit of the new crank bolt, and if rolled threads, removes the strongest part, the work hardened surface of the female threading.The crankshaft female threading is cut with a regular tap, not a roll tap.
Tight threads are 75% engagement and on the looser side a manufacturer will shoot for 65%. It is possible to go looser than 65%, but typically only for cheesy consumer grade junk at Walmart. More engagement then 75% means lots of broken taps during manufacture. With any thread engagement target there are classes of fit (ie how close do you want to hit that 65%?) that I won't go into here.
As a tap wears, it becomes smaller, less material is cut from the hole. Therefore thread engagement with the female part increases. The bolt fit gets tighter as the shape of the cut thread suffers. How does Mazda know when to change the tap? Tapping torque. Significant change. A worn tap may easily take twice as much torque to turn.
That said, the strength difference between a 65% and 75% thread is probably about 5%. And Mazda is not designing to a tight class. The fit, at the assembly level, is going to use all of this tolerance. The take away: use a chaser if you like, but a tap is not going to take away enough material to weaken to fastener's connection.
I've worked in and around machine shops for decades on parts for aerospace, medical device, automotive, consumer goods. I've poured all kinds of different Loctite on nuts and bolts of every size and alloy. I've put together, disassembled, and repaired all of this crap and I've never SEEN a thread chaser anywhere but a shadetreer's tool box.
Chas H
18th November 2022, 20:46
The crankshaft female threading is cut with a regular tap, not a roll tap.
.
I think the threads are chased, rather tapped.
NoahsMyBro
18th November 2022, 20:56
I think the threads are chased, rather tapped.
Well of course you would say that, CHAS.
:)
Chas H
18th November 2022, 20:58
Well done, sir!
Lance Schall
18th November 2022, 21:14
I think the threads are chased, rather tapped.They may well be. Either way the end result is a cut thread, removing material, making an internal thread where there was no thread before.
For other readers, this is a different chase than the tool mentioned above. A lathe threading chase is a single point or ganged set matching the desired thread pitch that is introduced in a smooth bore hole and move radially and axially simultaneously to cut an internal thread. Think of it like one flute of a regular straight tap mounted to a boring bar.
A thread repair chase, as mentioned above is a purposely manufactured "dull" tap meant to reform existing internal threads by displacing the metal already present.
NoahsMyBro
19th November 2022, 12:22
Thanks all.
@Lance - I’m glad to get to learn what you’ve shared. We’re lucky to have this forum and your wealth of knowledge and willingness to post the info like you did above.
This morning the thread chaser was delivered. The packaging labels it as a spark plug thread chaser. I didn’t realize those were the same size. Huh. In any case I haven’t opened it yet, not ready for that step.
This afternoon I began cleaning up the timing gear area and trying to remove the gear.
Also sprayed some brake parts cleaner into the crankshaft nose and began cleaning out the inside of that with an old toothbrush.
So far I’m unable to get the gear off. I plan on replacing (i believe it is around $50) it so I haven’t been particularly gentle, but I’m also not going crazy so as to not damage other parts.
Just gave up for the evening, sprayed the gear with PB Blaster (don’t expect that to help but happy to be wrong) and will re-tackle tomorrow.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52510550931_8cfd4b0e53.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o1bimp)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52510075132_bb9784f1ba.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o18RUY)
Lance Schall
19th November 2022, 18:02
Upon closer examination, I don't think it's a weld bead, just the beaten remains of the key. Looks like some sawing or filing has happen there too.
3MiataFamily
19th November 2022, 18:07
Ok...if you can get that gear to move even a LITTLE bit you will be able to get it off
Try a chisel on the passenger side of the gear in one of the teeth hitting straight down....HARD...been there
7 Loctite fixes and sometimes ya gotta get a little Magilla Gorilla with things
NoahsMyBro
19th November 2022, 18:10
Just to be clear before I get violent -
Place the ‘blade’ of the chisel parallel with the teeth and pushing down against the gear teeth in a way that will try to rotate the gear counter-clockwise when I hit the chisel?
gtxhawaii
19th November 2022, 19:34
. . .
I've worked in and around machine shops for decades on parts for aerospace, medical device, automotive, consumer goods. I've poured all kinds of different Loctite on nuts and bolts of every size and alloy. I've put together, disassembled, and repaired all of this crap and I've never SEEN a thread chaser anywhere but a shadetreer's tool box.
This is an astonishing statement to read. And brings so many others into question. Searching for the most impressive authority on an automotive forum, I happened on a Most excellent one. Not the most persuasive to me, later on that.
ARP is generally seen as the top end of fastener suppliers for automobiles and motorsports. They HIGHLY recommend use of a thread chaser on each and every engine assembly using their fasteners, or not.
Cut and pasted from page 174 of the 2023 ARP catalog
Thread Cleaning Chasers
ARP’s handy thread cleaning chaser taps are designed with correct thread pitch and diam
eter to clean dirty blind or thru holes. Taps come in five USS sizes: 1/4˝, 5/16˝, 3/8˝, 7/16˝ and
1/2˝, as well as metric. They are sold individually or in sets. Please note that these are strictly
cleaning taps and are not designed to cut thread. They are a handy addition to the tool box
of any serious engine builder and an essential aid to preparing any block for final assembly.
Don’t take a chance on weakening block and cylinder head threads. * Use these handy thread
cleaning chasers whenever possible! My bold
Followed by the list of currently available short and 6" thread chasers.
*Implied condemnation of cutting taps in existing cut threading, seen widely in SAE and other industry sources.
The above industry practice is hard to miss by entering "tap and dies vs thread chasers" in any search engine. I found No disagreement in numerous hits. One such short description:
story from: Auto Service Professional - November/December 2014
Restoring male or female fastener threads
By Mike Mavrigian
Whenever you’re faced with dirty or slightly burred female threads (cylinder head threaded holes in a block, spark plug holes in a head, etc.), you may be tempted to grab an appropriate size cutting tap to clean up the threads. The correct choice is to use a “chaser” tap. A cutting tap is designed to create new threads, whereas a chaser tap is designed to clean, re-form and restore existing threads.
Chasing burred female threads
If you want to clean-up existing female threads (maybe the threaded hole has burrs or a bit of corrosion, etc.), it’s best to use a chaser, or follower tap instead of a common cutting tap. A chaser tap is designed to re-form the threads, as opposed to a cutting tap, which will cut its way through, possibly removing too much thread material. This is especially important when dealing with critical-torque-load threaded holes such as cylinder head bolt holes in an engine block’s deck. These taps that are designed specifically for cleaning cylinder block threads are also called block clean out taps. Other dedicated restoration taps include those made specifically for restoring spark plug threads in cylinder heads. Restoring cylinder head bolt holes in block decks and spark plug holes in heads are likely the two most common applications.
Chaser taps are specifically designed to reform and clean existing threads. The spirals on a chaser tap are designed in such a way to follow an existing helical thread spiral path without removing material. While you may be able to accomplish the task by using a standard cutting tap, you run the risk of weakening the existing threads.
Chaser taps (male taps for cleaning female threads) are available in virtually all fractional and metric sizes, but only the most common sizes seem to be readily available. Fractional inch examples include 1/4x20, 5/16x18, 3/8x16, 7/16x14 and 1/2x20. Beyond that, we need to attempt sourcing from highly specialized tool makers. (https://issuu.com/10missionsmedia/docs/asp_1214/s/11107809)
My favorite post, and seminal education event, was an article by an engineer claiming to be at the SAE industry fastener standards institute. His description of when to use taps (To Cut new threads) vs thread chasers (to clean up or reform existing dirty or damaged threads precisely matches the above material. With more details and reasons.
He also went on to discuss optimal torque wrench use, saying ONLY a 'one smooth pull, to final tool indication' is acceptable. Staging to near final torque is fine, but there has to be room to establish a smooth rotation as the fastener approaches spec. Check pulls or tentative use are fully condemned as excellent ways to have inaccurate, and usually high, fastener torques. The fastener threading has to be sliding for the physics of torque wrenches to establish a reliable/accurate torque. And, of course, I have not re-found the site or article in many tries looking.
Other posts on a forum For machinists listed one career worker as saying there are actually 7 different tolerance tap dimensions for any size threading. He has them all. And Thread Chasers for each and every common thread spec, again in his tool cabinet. Both cut and roll threading was discussed, with the note most automotive Serious locations get roll threading, for it's superior strength, which means a wholly different thread profile (No sharp edge at bottoms between crests.) a separate reason for the looser tolerances of thread chasers over taps.
OP, the crank nose threading is, IMO, far too deep for the normal spark plug thread restorer. The one I have only has enough male threads past the plug well bottoming shoulder, to clean to normal spark plug thread depth in heads. MEASURE your crank nose hole, as best you can, to determine if the tool will reach all the threading a new crank bolt will. If not, making your own thread chaser from any bolt long enough, with the correct thread spec, is direct. A 'same' bolt will be more than long enough since there won't be any parts stacked on the crank nose. Cut 2, 3 or 4 equally spaced flutes along the threaded body of the bolt. Keep edges sharp as possible. This modified bolt is a Cleaning tap only, the metallurgy is probably too close to that of the crank nose to do much if any thread reforming. Clean is a real accomplishment, quite difficult to accomplish without a similar tool. I use my Dremel cutting disc attachment, with Serious eye protection, to cut the flutes in a good crank bolt. Used is fine for a BNC bolt.
I've had innumerable Dremel cutting disc shatter in use, creating interesting high speed shrapnel. Which is usually being used near to, and in plane with, irreplaceable eyes of the tool wielder.
As with a cutting tap, best practice is to advance only small distances (rotationally) and backing to free any chips, debris or old thread lock so forces using the tool don't build to destructive levels, or interfere with the chaser's function. (Tom's post) This holds for fastener removal as well, particularly typically eroded fasteners, like the cover screws for the thermostat housing.
For Really damaged female threading, SnapOn, and others, have a tool with various combs that fit the common spec threads. The holder allows two combs to be centered on each other, then slid into a threaded hole. Then the tool adjusts to force the combs hard against (and registering on) the existing good threading deep in the hole. Turning the tool and combs uses the deep good threads to guide the chasing combs as they encounter damaged (typically cross threaded) or dirty threading closer to the mouth of the hole. This avoids all the imprecision of trying to start a cleaning/restoring tap in bad threads at the mouth of the hole. Which is a serious issue that can ruin a block or head that isn't suitable for other rethreading methods involving a larger drill bit use.
For damaged male threading, 'split' dies are clamped on and started below the damage, then run out to the end.
A less convenient option is taking the whole female threaded part to a machine shop to use a single point tap tool discussed above, held in a lathe, and started in deep good threads, and run out through the damaged area, same as the portable comb tool.
STO962
19th November 2022, 20:01
......
My files say Big Nose Crank bolts are M14x1.5 thread. Get that size Thread Chaser. ....
This morning the thread chaser was delivered. The packaging labels it as a spark plug thread chaser. I didnt realize those were the same size. Huh. In any case I havent opened it yet, not ready for that step....
Spark plug threads are normally 14x1.25 thread. I'm not sure what the threads of the crank are, but I suggest you compare the chaser or tap that you use to a new crank bolt to be sure you have the right size. You don't want to damage the crank any more than it already is.
Lance Schall
19th November 2022, 23:17
This is an astonishing statement to read. And brings so many others into question. Searching for the most impressive authority on an automotive forum....I can find an uncountable number of internet authorities who think you're supposed to hand tighten oil filters too. Whatever.
Thread chaser tools are fine for scraping the gunk out of female threads but in my experience do little to repair damaged threads. Even less useful is a matching bolt with grooves cut down the threading.
If you look at the OP's bolt you will see the galled material in the last two threads. That came from the female threads in the crankshaft. Somewhere down that bore, we've ripped out two threads. I'd be more worried about that than counting the atoms removed by a cutting tap.
flylow7f39
20th November 2022, 03:07
I first used thread chasers back in the late 60s. Local machine shop, closed years ago, recommended thread chasers over thread cutting taps and dies on critical fasteners because they do not remove metal. Still seems like logical opinion to me.
I grab a thread chaser first even for buggered up noncritical fasteners. I figure, YMMV, why unnecessarily chance removing metal if you do not need to. Most recent buggered up threads I dealt with was a wheel stud on an old Ford pickup truck. Thread chaser did the job, lug nut then threaded on as it should.
I prefer to save my taps and dies for cutting new threads instead of dulling them unnecessarily, YMMV.
I can find an uncountable number of internet authorities who think you're supposed to hand tighten oil filters too. Whatever.
I just do what the manufacturer says. Sometimes I can't get the recommended turn by hand power, some filters are hard to access so I grab a filter wrench for the last bit.
https://www.pgfilters.com/tech-tips/proper-oil-filter-installation-spin/
"Once the filter is seated properly, hand tighten the filter at least 3/4 of a turn of maximum hand torque. Some truck applications may require a full turn; please refer to the vehicle maintenance manual. Do not tighten with any tools or wrench."
At about 2:10 in Purolators youtube video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gomCYZg9Grs
"... tighten by hand until it is snug. Then tighten the filter an additional 3/4 turn. Be sure not to over-tighten."
gomCYZg9Grs
'92 Miata factory service manual states:
"4. Install the oil filter and tighten it by hand until the rubber
seal contacts the base.
5. Tighten the filter 1 and 1/6 turn with a filter wrench"
https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=389470&stc=1&d=1668926790
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 03:17
Just to be clear before I get violent -
Place the ‘blade’ of the chisel parallel with the teeth and pushing down against the gear teeth in a way that will try to rotate the gear counter-clockwise when I hit the chisel?
Not sure what 'parallel' describes. We used surplus large screwdrivers, till they were ruined, then end grain hardwood. Old hickory or oak tool handles are ideal. Hit is sideways to cog tooth in direction of rotation desired. I'd start turning the cog clockwise, to attempt to 'unwind' the cog on the damaged key. Hit is on side of any cog tooth, 'normal' to the tooth side. Metal tools soon mark and eventually ruin the cog, something assumed aggressive removal will cause anyway, once it's found to be badly stuck. Ideal wood is flat at both ends, for taking the small sledge blows (heaviest hammer you can find, and work in the available space), other flat end goes against the side of a tooth. A mild back cut helps keep the wood tool engaged with the cog tooth.
We reversed direction of forced rotation any time we detected any movement of the cog. 'Several' hours of pounding eventually started the cog turning. Our issue was probably just corrosion, on a tight fitting Big Nose Cog. The problem is absent in the Really loose fitting Short Nose Crank cog. So loose one wonders if it will go 'flat' (centered) upon bolt torque. But close examination shows the back of the cog central hole has a bevel, just the right size to center on the small fillet at the back of the crank nose, where it transitions to the flat surface the cog clamps against, to transmit the torque to timing belt and drive accessories through the belts on the Harmonic Balancer.
As to cause of the bolt threads locking, and the rust on the bolt: Wet torques on sealed threads won't permit corrosion. Seal of bolt head to Pulley Boss is indeterminate if dry. By my thinking, why so many similar parts are speced with 'sealant' in the service manual. I'm a fan of the hand tool defeatable Loctite medium thread locks (243, 244), and putting a bit on the back of the bolt head, to promote sealing the whole threaded engagement area.
Lance's criticism on the unsuitability of a DIY chaser made from a Mazda crank bolt, for reshaping poor condition threading, is more than fair. Reshaping chasers are much harder metal than either crank or bolt, or any threading they are intended to be used on for thread restoration. Which upon reflection, makes me doubt the spark plug thread restorers, used mostly in aluminum heads these days, may not be a suitable metallurgy for crank shaft threading, in addition to STO962's comment they probably aren't the right thread spec anyway.
The home made tool is useful for quickly removing old thread lock, not always a trivial task. Ideal size brass brushes (tooth brush size) from welder or gun cleaning supplies are pretty good. Larger caliber brass rifled and shotgun barrel brushes are close to the ideal size, and are already round. The Loctite spray can thread lock solvent is very helpful. (Chisel®), though it's difficult to find for sale. Posts here suggest it's mostly acetone. If your hardware charges 100 year old whisky prices for acetone like mine does, it's the major ingredient in fingernail polish remover, which might be nearby among the possessions of a fingernail polish user.
I work a DIY chaser through the threading till I can easily do this with fingers only, no tools. Brake cleaner and other solvents are part of the scrubbing. This is repeated with the new crank bolt that is going into the engine permanently, deeper than it will when all the parts it clamps are in place. It's all blown out with shop air, when I have a compressor. When final assembly happens, enough thread lock to wet all the engaged threading is applied (too much more risks a hydro lock in this or any blind hole. Hydro locks snap bolts or produce wildly low actual torques.), and some on the back of the bolt head for sealing against corrosion. Which also minimizes friction when torquing the bolt, similar to the suggested lubing of machined washers under head bolts. If not to ideal torque spec (Higher if anything), this helps to even the actually applied torques among the different head bolts, probably more important than a wider distribution of torques all averaging to spec.
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 03:57
Could you drill and tap 3-4 holes in the cog to use as leverage, i.e. drill matching holes in a plate that you place across the snout, thread the bolts through the plate into the cog, and screw them gradually in to pull the cog off the snout?
Somehow this post seems to have been ignored in the press of events. I missed it. The cog is Hard, but tools are around to do this. Too late now for this engine, but an idea to keep in mind.
Lance Schall has posted that his timing belt cog didn't come with threaded holes (Only early SNC/NA6 ones did, AFAIK) so he drilled and threaded holes in case a gear puller was ever needed. One mod near the top of my list of mechanical mods to make any Miata engine I ever build up more rational, to my thinking. Other biggie is to relieve the Pulley Boss so the timing belt can be extracted for a swap out, without having to loosen and remove the crank bolt. What was Mazda thinking? Yes, you want to change out old crank oil seals, but if it Isn't old, a fast belt change as optional is an easier decision if the hassle is minimized, as with SNC cranks.
3MiataFamily
20th November 2022, 10:16
Just to be clear before I get violent -
Place the blade of the chisel parallel with the teeth and pushing down against the gear teeth in a way that will try to rotate the gear counter-clockwise when I hit the chisel?
Yup...that lower gear has rotated and the key is mangled...so getting it to move in the opposite direction would be my first thing.
This thread has drifted somewhat...getting the gear to move even the slightest bit is the first step....followed by liberal amounts of lube ....might even add some heat.
Once the gear is of, then you can change the front seal and have a little more room to attempt to get the threads repaired
NoahsMyBro
20th November 2022, 15:46
Ok. Now this means war.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52512142682_6e4483d89e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o1jswo)
Im getting that damn gear off today.
But first, off to Ace to get something brutal to bring into battle with me.
Lance Schall
20th November 2022, 15:58
What, in the name of Sam Hill, were you doing with that file?
NoahsMyBro
20th November 2022, 16:10
Using it as a chisel to try and budge the timing gear.
Lance Schall
20th November 2022, 16:19
Good gad, man! Files are heat treated to be harder than a whor*'s heart. And brittle too. Used as a striking tool can shatter like glass. Must of us reach for an old screw driver, the cheaper the better. Not totally because we are impoverished but the crappier the screw driver, the less likely is it to have a heat treated tip.
Strawdawg
20th November 2022, 16:29
I use a large brass drift along with a heavy hammer along with controlled taps to avoid damage to the piece I want to reuse
NoahsMyBro
20th November 2022, 16:32
Good gad, man! Files are heat treated to be harder than a whor*'s heart. And brittle too. Used as a striking tool can shatter like glass. Must of us reach for an old screw driver, the cheaper the better. Not totally because we are impoverished but the crappier the screw driver, the less likely is it to have a heat treated tip.
I didnt know. And dont have a long enough screwdriver.
My entire life Ive thought I am the stereotypical 98lb weakling, but this job is making me reconsider that.
Lance Schall
20th November 2022, 16:44
Large cold chisel and 2 pound sledge hammer. Don't need brass drift for this, harder to find, more expensive, and you're not going to reuse the cog anyway.
Strawdawg
20th November 2022, 16:48
The nice thing about brass is that it won't gouge the crank if it slips :). Be careful and that's not a problem
Lance Schall
20th November 2022, 17:00
My entire life Ive thought I am the stereotypical 98lb weaklingThere are no weaklings working on cars, only men with bigger hammers, longer wrench handles, and more power tools.
NoahsMyBro
20th November 2022, 17:06
[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52512311297_a16497d338.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/188Qs23kmi)
Its on now.
Lance Schall
20th November 2022, 17:15
Right! Resist the urge to pry on the cog. That chips the cog edge, which you don't care about but also can mash the front of the engine which is relatively weak cast aluminum, the oil pump.
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 17:22
HUGE second, or whatever, on Not using a file! Sturdy metal drift or chisel. Same on prying the back edge of the cog. The rim of the cog Will break, wrecking the oil pump when using it as your lever fulcrum is almost as likely. I prefer seriously hard wood, grain straight from hitting surface to impact surface (End grain). Old hickory hammer handles are ideal, might need to be shortened some to work in the area. Soft woods like pine are 'unsuitable'. You will soon correctly evaluate any wood sample or other tool after a couple of hits.
COUNTERCLOCKWISE May not be correct!! Keyway at TDC, the key is hammered to the left, which I'm thinking is counter clockwise already. You want to 'unwind' the damaged key, so initial cog movement is CLOCKWISE. If you disagree with my thinking, it's your car, not mine. Go with your best analysis, second opinions can save money and grief.
Extreme caution on 'unwinding' the cog. Just to start movement, you DO NOT want to damage the driver side wall of the crankshaft keyway! This will be your reference for fitting the new key, positioning the new cog, and assembling the crank nose such that the cams are correctly registered to the crank after the timing belt is reinstalled. Our messy cog removal had the advantage of the key being removable. I don't see that happening on your engine soon. I would try to grab the key with vice grips at any time you feel it worth some effort. Once the key is removed the cog is easier (Possible?) to turn or pull. if the key won't remove early, you are restricted to small movements of the cog back and forth. This is where a gear puller, and a rotary cutter making cuts in opposing cog teeth for arms of the puller to gain purchase becomes a likely next step.
3MiataFamily
20th November 2022, 17:30
Oops...I stand corrected...after looking at the pics for the 20th time...lol!
The trick here is to get ANY movement at all...and it's gonna take some force. That key is mangled...the crank slot is mangled...it doesn't matter what happens to the gear at this point.
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 18:10
Oops...I stand corrected...after looking at the pics for the 20th time...lol!
The trick here is to get ANY movement at all...and it's gonna take some force. That key is mangled...the crank slot is mangled...it doesn't matter what happens to the gear at this point.
All the damaged crank noses I've pulled apart had crank nose keyway damage ONLY to the passenger side wall, none to driver side, none to keyway floor. This means to me the first hits go on the passenger side of a cog tooth at the top of the cog. But Not turning the cog past alignment of cog and crank nose keyways. Repeating small movements back and forth hopefully loosen the cog on the crank nose. If not, to keep the crankshaft nose suitable for a Loctite Fix, I'm move to cutting the sides of the cog so a gear puller can work. I've never seen a gear puller with grips thin enough to fit behind a Miata timing belt cog. Not saying one doesn't exist.
Drilling and tapping holes in the cog for that type of a puller is possible, but I don't think as easy in the space available, nor are the necessary quality metal drill bits common possessions, as the holes can't be shallow and allow a tap to create threading. I suspect even the best drill bits still need cooling/cutting oil, to not overheat and dull in this deep of hole.
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 18:56
Best thinking seems to happen when doing routine chores unrelated to a technical question:
How Much movement of the cog won't wreck the hopefully remaining good sidewall of the crank nose keyway can be determined by getting piston #1 to TDC (Spark plug has to come out, clean tool/oil dip stick goes in to witness piston height.), then how far the notch on the back rim of the TB cog is off the alignment arrow on the oil pump body right behind, defines how far it's moved, and Maybe, how far you can safely hammer it back and forth, to break the grip between cog and crankshaft nose.
A Loctite Fix is more difficult if both walls of the crank keyway are damaged, I've never heard of, or attempted this. Mostly because all mine came apart without risking the damage. Welding the cog in precisely the right place would be an alternative to a Loctite Fix, but dooms the engine's service life to how long the crank nose oil seal keeps sealing. Some smaller possibility of a secure Fix without a definitive key engagement against the normally good driver side wall of the crank keyway, if the cog is managed to be held in correct position through the bolt torque (I'd go maybe 10ft-lbs high, experience with above spec torque on SNC bolts shows there is headroom for more.), with the same liberal use of 660 as a normal Loctite Fix. And, checking cog position right after bolt torquing, before the 660 starts setting up, so it all can be de-torqued and realigned if necessary.
Contrary to intuition, experience with immediate progressive damage to key and keyways on loss of bolt torque demonstrates the Miata's straight key is Not key to cog staying in place in service. The bolt clamp on the cog creates the friction between back of cog and vertical face of crank behind the cog, for all force transmission through the crank/cog interface. But somehow epoxy fails here Soon, 660 keeps the repair successful. (Go figure??) Other than the above repairs, excess damage to the crank nose fixes with a new crankshaft, or different engine? Those of us with zero place to work on an engine on a stand, and probably deficient tool sets for reliable engine assembly, are particularly motivated to try less desireable repairs than all good parts. The necessary welding would challenge most non-professionals, IF even realistally possible on a frozen cog, and a lot of working pros too? I'd want the guy the other welders ask questions about stuff.
2002tiitomx5
20th November 2022, 18:58
Check out this method.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8N0y0jVAng
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 20:04
Nice video, not the most organized speaker, but way the most educated in the physics of the work he is doing, of recent DIY ones. A breath of fresh air among all the ill-informed egos on YouTube.
I suspect his method might not work on the OP's crank bolt, but it strongly suggests an induction heater probably is as good, if not better, for specific jobs. Now I actually Want a TIG welder. The comments on the cheaper HF ones point out flux core is simpler for some jobs, inadequate for others.
frankwissman
20th November 2022, 20:49
Check out this method.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8N0y0jVAng
Great video, I’ve known about copper on the back of sheet/plate welding, as a shield for bolt extraction makes so much sense. Thanks1
STO962
20th November 2022, 21:06
Check out this method.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8N0y0jVAng
Nice video, not the most organized speaker, but way the most educated in the physics of the work he is doing, of recent DIY ones. A breath of fresh air among all the ill-informed egos on YouTube.
I suspect his method might not work on the OP's crank bolt, but it strongly suggests an induction heater probably is as good, if not better, for specific jobs. Now I actually Want a TIG welder. The comments on the cheaper HF ones point out flux core is simpler for some jobs, inadequate for others.
The guy in the video was using a MIG welder. I've used a similar method successfully many times. Using a shielding gas provides better results than flux core wire and the welds look a lot better.
gtxhawaii
20th November 2022, 21:30
TIG was a mental error, I meant the right machine. The video producer knows of no other user, but said he'd be quite surprised if it wasn't known and used by others. Some discoveries are just when the tech matures, many will independently put the pieces together for new use. Why documenting work with good dating counts so much when competitive patent applications get decided.
huesmann
21st November 2022, 08:16
I'd be surprised if the OP has a welder.
Again, if you can drill and tap 3-4 holes in the cog and a steel plate, it should be fairly facile to pull the cog off the snout, even by a 98-pound weakling.
NoahsMyBro
22nd November 2022, 00:54
I don't have a welder.
I'd love to have a welder, even more so I'd like to know how to use one. If I had a welder I'd be more likely to burn down my house than to successfully accomplish whatever I was intending.
BUT TONIGHT WAS A SUCCESS. Nothing I can take credit for, but forward progress certainly.
The friend who has been helping me out came over tonight to continue the work, and arrived just as I was brought into a 3 hour work phone call.
But while I was on the call we went from this (well, with broken gear teeth, thanks to my unsuccessful efforts last night):
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52510550931_8cfd4b0e53_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o1bimp)
to this:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52515433562_ffe0dfce37.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o1BjMG)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52516454578_e7ee559b1e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o1Gyiq)
We also used a tap & die set to take the top of the broken bolt - the section that had no threads - and threaded it, and also used a new tap set to carefully, gently clean out the crankshaft hole. We were able to thread both the rethreaded bolt, AND the brand new replacement OEM crank bolt, into the crankshaft smoothly by hand, without forcing anything. I will be cleaning the crankshaft 'socket' out more thoroughly before final assembly, but that was encouraging.
NEXT STEPS:
Pay off my credit card bill.
Order:
new Pulley Boss
new woodruff key
new crank timing gear
Just Miata Crank Saver*
Pick up where I left off last Wednesday (2 Wednesdays ago?) when I initially broke the crank bolt. Continue with the timing belt/water pump R&R job. Remove & replace the crank seal, the water pump, the camshaft seals, the tensioners, the timing belt, etc... I am legitimately excited to get going on this stuff now.
And a couple of notes for any other amateurs out there that might read this thread in the future:
- near the beginning of this adventure my mechanic advised that I find a large piece of cardboard and secure it against the air conditioner condenser to protect the condenser from accidental damage. THAT was a very, very good idea and I'm thankful for the tip.
- also at the beginning of the work I was using towels over the front of the car and front fenders, to protect the body. The towels were constantly falling onto the floor and were a nuisance. I then took the roll of foam rubber I had left over from when I recovered my seats a year or two ago, and placed it across the front of the car. Improvement, but still it was tending to slide and want to fall, or slide forward (toward the engine) and get in our way. A light bulb lit up in my head and I poked a small slit in the foam near the edge, and then stuck the hood latch through the slit. The foam rubber has stayed perfectly in place since then!
*I've searched the forums here and searched the WWW at large, and it seems to me most people on these forums think the Crank Saver is nothing but snake oil, but I don't see complete agreement/consensus. I also realize the crank saver includes a key, and so if I use it then I won't need the new OEM key (and they are different sizes of course). I'm going to order it and once the new parts arrive I'll see how things look with just the new OEM key and gear, and will compare that to how things seem to go together with the Crank Saver product and make a decision then.
EDIT:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/miata-crankshaft-saver/103756/page1/
If Keith Tanner says, and I think Lance Schall also said elsewhere in this thread, to skip the Crank Saver and do the Loctite fix instead, I'm inclined to go with their wisdom over my ignorance. Not ordering the Crank Saver at this time.
Strawdawg
22nd November 2022, 01:31
You have my respect, for sure! Congratulations on getting the bolt out and the gear off! One of the most important qualities in being a car guy is not muscles, it is persistence...
gtxhawaii
22nd November 2022, 02:48
Agree on the essential quality of persistence!
Also agree on the pointless invention, 'Crank Saver'. More a solution looking for a problem. As a veteran of 'several' Loctite Fixes, I'm very familiar with the details of the crank nose, and see no improvement of the physics of the fastener or engagement of the timing belt sprocket when using the device. It merely adds one more part under the crank bolt, as best my study reveals. The flaw in the design is the assumption the key is loaded in use, so a bigger key supported it's full length somehow improves things. The key is not involved in driving the TB sprocket or accessory belt pulley (Harmonic Balancer), which are solely driven from the cranknose by the friction at the back of the cog generated by the clamp force of the crank bolt. The inventor's supposition the crank nose is too short misses that the cog aligns on the machined flat face of the crank nose it's clamped against, and that the bolt Has to have a gap or it torques on the crank nose, leaving the cog free to hammer the key and keyways under use. As anyone knows who has taken apart a Big Nose Crank that failed bolt torque, the key soon sheers from the forces driving the Pulley Boss. More key or longer keyway (Crank Saver, which is only located by key and bolt clamp force) doesn't do squat to make a small key cross section adequate to the forces involved.
What would improve the Miata crank nose is machining it to a slight taper, and creating a custom taper lock sprocket, same as several other Japanese car makers use. Toyota Supra noses survive 1500+HP turbo builds? DIY gear/sprocket tooth cutting machines aren't in just every garage. Nor is the precision taper needed for the cog to sit the right depth on the crank simple to specify, such that the accessory belt pulley elements are in plane with either of the driven pulleys on WP, Alt., AC and PS. A stock Miata crank nose might be tapered, and the stock TB sprocket ID be tapered, and a third tapered in- and outside bush in between, might lock satisfactorily.
Points for engineering education. (Use the terms in Mazda parts books when ordering Mazda parts??) The part that was stuck was/is not a gear. Gears engage other gears, period. Looking like a gear doesn't make it so. Function defines the terms. The tooth shape is correct for a toothed belt, Not for engaging a similarly toothed gear. (Not even going near the math of smoothly engaging tooth shapes.) Another interesting, and definitive factor, is that simple (in the same plane) gears always reverse rotation between two engaging gears. Always! Sprockets engage chains or toothed belts. And, Always conserve direction of rotation. Nor is it a pulley. Pulleys (See accessory drive belts on Miata engine) engage smooth (on the engagement surfaces) belts or ropes/lines, Not toothed belts. Pulleys and sprockets work the same, but pulleys can slip if forces exceed design torque, or belt tension. Sprockets, chains and toothed belts only slip if something goes wrong.
PLEASE, folks, look at pictures of a Woodruff Key with any search engine. Wikipedia is fine. ("Woodruff Key: Woodruff keys are semicircular, fitting partly into a circular segment keyway with the remainder fitting into a longitudinal slot keyway in the mating part. The circular segment can be cut directly by plunge cutting with a circular Woodruff cutter without any reliefs." Wikipedia) The Miata crank nose key is a Parallel (or Straight) Key. Any machinist or knowledgeable parts counter or parts store salesman will be chucking at the newbie, most diplomatic enough to not correct you. I find the more you know about the parts and procedures, the less smoke is blown where the Sun don't shine, and prices tend to stay 'normal'.
Heavy double or triple layer corrugated cardboard is an fine protection for the AC condenser. Plywood is even better. The condenser isn't more expensive than the radiator. Evacuating and refilling a punctured AC system, plus a new condenser, definitely is more expensive.
Lance Schall
22nd November 2022, 11:12
Also agree on the pointless invention, 'Crank Saver'. More a solution looking for a problem. As a veteran of 'several' Loctite Fixes, I'm very familiar with the details of the crank nose, and see no improvement of the physics of the fastener or engagement of the timing belt sprocket when using the device.I may have started/encouraged the rumor of the key not carrying load. It is not the primary support in an assembled unit. However, it has an important role in preventing vibration/impulse loosening of the connection allowing the bolt to stay tight and do its job. I would invite a brave reader to assemble a non-damaged crankshaft nose and withdraw the key before introducing the bolt. Torque it down and drive off. Report back how far you got.
What the Crank Saver does is skews the load on the key from bending to shearing, likely a stronger interface. While I am not an enthusiastic supporter of the Crank Saver and do not necessarily recommend it, I have one on my car. Mine is part of a significant re-design and rather than the additional key support, I was after a countersunk bolt hole, which I machined into the end of the Crank Saver.
barnettmiata
22nd November 2022, 11:43
I have nothing to add other than to say this is the best thread on this forum in a LONG time! Like a great story it continues to unfold with new info and plot twists. All the great advice from the regulars helping the OP fix the issue.
Thanks!!
Lance Schall
22nd November 2022, 14:00
I have nothing to add other than to say this is the best thread on this forum in a LONG time! Like a great story it continues to unfold with new info and plot twists...Here's some new semi-near topic content:
NoahsMyBro
22nd November 2022, 14:11
That looks great!
Lance Schall
22nd November 2022, 14:13
Custom configuration with Crankshaft Saver! Wait until you see the puller I made...
The way it works is the center bolt has two threads, ever so slightly different in pitch. One turn on the bolt causes the puller body to move back 0.060 inches.
toolinalong
22nd November 2022, 19:02
Atomic bomb proof and pleasing to the eye , great work sir !
Lance Schall
22nd November 2022, 20:19
Thank you! I've pictured it here before, in my build thread, but without the annotations so people could see what was going on.
To relate it back to this thread, I could point out that the sintered steel cog was drilled and reamed for 4 press fit dowels and drilled and tapped for 4 puller screws with regular HSS tooling, drills and thread tap. That is, sintered parts can be heat treated very hard or soft annealed like any other steel. This cog is nothing difficult. If a guy wanted to, he could drill and tap it for a puller in situ.
gtxhawaii
22nd November 2022, 21:26
Question on the fit of the cog on the crank nose. A puller is The answer for difficult removals. Is the standard small clearance of the OEM cog on the stock crank hose still present, such that a puller is not at all necessary when the parts are in good condition? Have you seen any corrosion in the usual close fitting BNC cog-to-cranknose gap with provisions during assembly to either seal or protectively coat the surfaces?
Am I correct in assuming two opposing tapped holes would be sufficient for an in-place constructed DIY puller if a cog is stuck? That seems far simpler than most other methods discussed in this thread, if a suitable tap is at hand. I'm guessing a normal starting tap not quite emerging at the back of the cog (so no bottoming tap needed) still produces enough quality threads to the front of the cog for the standard minimum engagement of the puller screws of more threading engaged than the major diameter of the chosen thread.
If crank was out, and the cog is directly machinable, wouldn't a second key and keyway, 180º from the original, be stronger than the mod based on the Crank Saver? And still be compatible with the larger(?) shaft bolt shown?
Was any form of more durable harmonic damper (eg., ATI or Fluidamper) considered for the engine. If so, why the decision to use the OEM?
Lance Schall
22nd November 2022, 22:35
Question on the fit of the cog on the crank nose. A puller is The answer for difficult removals. Is the standard small clearance of the OEM cog on the stock crank hose still present, such that a puller is not at all necessary when the parts are in good condition? Have you seen any corrosion in the usual close fitting BNC cog-to-cranknose gap with provisions during assembly to either seal or protectively coat the surfaces?I have not noticed or examined any variation in the fit of crankshaft nose and cog. There is nothing added to mine. If I thought the fit was loose, I'd use Loctite 648 Sleeve Retainer.
Am I correct in assuming two opposing tapped holes would be sufficient for an in-place constructed DIY puller if a cog is stuck? That seems far simpler than most other methods discussed in this thread, if a suitable tap is at hand. I'm guessing a normal starting tap not quite emerging at the back of the cog (so no bottoming tap needed) still produces enough quality threads to the front of the cog Yes, 2 puller holes with a regular start tap would be fine for a puller. You could just use a standard issue steering wheel puller.
If crank was out, and the cog is directly machinable, wouldn't a second key and keyway, 180º from the original, be stronger than the mod based on the Crank Saver? And still be compatible with the larger(?) shaft bolt shown?Yes, although broaching a slot is a pain in the ass. Different process, one that needs a specific ground broach...and that's just the cog. Then you'd want to pull the crankshaft to mill a slot. And grind it to size. Another pain in the ass. At least a chunk of key stock is off the shelf in whatever precision you want.
In mine, two things: 1) Crank Saver is mostly a giant countersink washer as modified and 2) I've got 4 locating dowels. The key isn't doing much here.
Was any form of more durable harmonic damper (eg., ATI or Fluidamper) considered for the engine. If so, why the decision to use the OEM? I'm only doing about 200hp and running below 6000rpm. I did not upgrade to a billet oil pump or aftermarket damper. I replace the damper at every 60,000 mile timing belt so I'm confident that it is in good condition.
If I was going to an aftermarket damper (240hp +), I would not use an ATI (it is "serviceable" for a reason? Just has rubber o-rings instead of bonded rubber) or the Fluidampr [trademark name is spelled wrong] (filled with silicone oil to leak out?) Are they "durable"? I like the TCI Rattler better. But, in any case have not had the need to study up on any of them.
NoahsMyBro
27th November 2022, 23:39
Just a quick note to assure all of you guys and gals I haven't forgotten about this thread. Over the past 3 weekends I've been out of town for two and I've just been busy and unable to attend to my Miata.
One night last week I tried to remove the crank seal, and got stuck there. I was trying to be careful to not nick the metal, and tried to follow the tips I found online (I think in the Garage section here) of driving a small screw into the seal, and then pulling the seal out by pulling on the screw with vise-grips. Each time I did this, the screw ripped out, tearing a little bit of the seal. When I gave up for the night about 25% of the seal was probably already torn out.
QUESTION - I understand the reason to avoid nicking the metal is to ensure the crank seal properly and as completely as possible seals the gap there, to prevent oil from leaking out. Given that, if the metal surface behind the seal is nicked - I.e., the metal that is perpendicular to the bottom of the car, parallel to a vertical line - I'd expect that doesn't matter. Is that correct?
In other news, trivial though it maybe, yesterday my new crankshaft cog, key, and boss pulley were delivered.
So I believe I am no longer waiting on any parts, and any delays now are completely on me.
Have a good week everybody!
ps: was in College Park, MD today, and a couple of times drove past a house on Adelphi Ave with a white NA parked at the curb, lowered and with aero body mods, and (white) BBS wheels. A BMW sedan was parked there as well with mirror-tint on the windows. The wheels caught my attention - if the car belongs to you, nice wheels. :-)
Lance Schall
28th November 2022, 00:02
... if the metal surface behind the seal is nicked - I.e., the metal that is perpendicular to the bottom of the car, parallel to a vertical line - I'd expect that doesn't matter. Is that correct?Correct
gtxhawaii
28th November 2022, 03:33
I'd much prefer the material on wood or sheet metal screws and small drill bit to attack oil seals would vanish, at least from the communities of cars I adore. HIGHLY risky for novices, certainly not as safe as more professional methods for anyone. Just too many chances for harder metal and the polished seal surface of the crank nose to come in contact. The screw or drill bit will always come off best. Repairing the seal surface of the crank nose IS possible, but a royal PITA. A speedi-sleeve approach is far easier physically on the worker in this restricted access, than doing a JB Weld fill and sand out, but maybe technically as challenging for a first timer?
The Lisle tool #58430 seal tool is my opinion of the best method for novices to remove otherwise challenging oil seals. Used correctly, there is little risk of damaging the essential Smooth seal surface of the crank nose where the apex of the rubber seal bears against. And as usual, 'used correctly' is where the rub is. The tool actually has fairly sharp edges so the flat between them needs to be kept flat to the crank seal surface.
Looking all this over, "NOPE!, NOPE!, and NO!!". (Pros who have done dozens with this tool may choose to work commando, I'm not even close to there.) So I immediately devised a temporary shield for the far too easily damaged polished rotating seal surface, settling on guitar pick sized cuts out of plastic smaller size water and soda pop bottles. I slide one or two between seal and crank, then seal extraction tool goes between plastic and seal. For really risky tool use, I'll double up the shields, and replace any the moment it takes damage from tool, or whatever. The plastic of drink bottles is flexible and tough, but not as tough as I'd like.
I prefer the shield cuts from a bottle to let the natural curve of the crank nose fit the bottle shape as best possible. I now use such shields numerous places around vulnerable parts. I was surprised to see no similar protective measure mentioned in the workshop manuals or on forum threads. I seriously doubt I was the first to have the idea, but nobody else seemed to post about it here, so I've been spreading the idea in seal threads ever since.
No need on cam seals, where my personal misfortune on initial use of drill and screw happened. As someone pointed out, to probably general embarrassment, certainly mine, the Safe/Fast way to remove cam oil seals is to just unbolt the front journal cap, which frees the seal for finger picking. Zero risk to anything, important or otherwise. The manual says front and rear bearing caps, those exposed to outside the valve cover, get a Thin wipe of sealant before installation. The caution is the sealant (RTV) is Not be be applied so that any squishes out into the journal space around the cam, where it could impair oil movement to and around any portion of the cam bearing. Ruined cams will result. Oil weeps at the journal cap edge, are the risk of no sealant.
Any new cam seal goes in (wet) same way, then flushed with your favorite method. I'm comfortable with old school 'back of big deep well socket' seal flushing, but recommend to novices the simpler and safer FM seal tools, a set of 3, for cam, front, and rear crank seals. I'd be even happier if these shapes were somehow sold by the late Toys R Us, as they'd a third the price at their volume. Hobbiests with a few tools might enjoy making these out of metal, plastic stock, or even decent hardwood. And an easy Maker project. All far more work if your time is worth money to you.
A very similar seal tool to the Lisle, for those unable to wait for shipping, is the common throw away paint can lid tools, given away by most hardware and paint stores. Same basic shape as the Lisle tool, possibly a bit safer surface that would contact the crank nose seal surface, if someone were determined to make unnecessary contact. Either slips under the old seal apex and hidden spring, to grab the less obvious edge of the front wall of the metal portion of the seal. Then, just pull.
For stuck seals, such tools may only bend or tear out the front wall of the seal. My big seal hassle seemed to be a seal a precious worked glued in with a damnable choice of substance. Corrosion may do nearly as bad?? My eventual answer was to use several tools to produce a bent forward portion of the seal's front wall, then tear it along the crank axis, then grab one ear and wind it opposite the usual way, 'winding' it around the grasping tips of my needle nose vice grip. This produced a locally vertical lifting action of the freed ribbon of seal rim metal from the adhesive, and rim bore wall. No tool was going to slide the seal outer rim out forward,that would just tear away the gripped portion of the seal metal. My fortune continued all the way around, and the seal came out in one long spiraled piece. Others have had to use sharp nails, ice picks or punches to start a stuck seal away from the bore of the seal opening in the oil pump case (or is it Seal Carrier?). Short gouges in the bore surface, that won't extend as far as the new seal outer wall will, don't really matter. Nor do small scratches of any length, given proper counter measures. For both installation lubrication, and chance of my mistakes, previous worker, caused seal bore damage, a thin wipe of normal gasket silicone RTV is spread on the outer rim of any seal I install, hardly a unique approach among forum posters.
The only real concern about the back face of the front crank oil seal, is to Not flush the seal rim back against that wall. (All oil seals I know about are flushed against the surrounding metal that is the rim of the seal bore.) Seen in a lower side corner, is the hole where oil from the front main crank bearing, that leaks forward to lube this seal, returns to the oil pan. If this oil exit is blocked by a seal bearing against the back wall, bearing bypass oil will immediately pressurize the front seal, and blow it out, or at least leak copiously under the seal apex.
Another danger, if not known about, may immediately dry fail a seal on initial startup, if the crank surface and seal apex weren't pre-lubed with engine oil. I do this just before sliding a seal over the cranknose, which helps Not dislodge the hidden apex tension spring inside any oil seal. (Damaging a seal apex on the sharp front edge of the crank seal surface is another reason for a wet apex. Many shops have dedicated cones in the usual sizes, to slide seals with less risk, onto these crank ends.) Only a few crank revolutions may abrade vulnerable dry rubber, long before the oil pump has time to build gallery oil pressure in a largely drained out engine, then deliver enough to the front bearing to spill out and lube the front seal from behind, the normal way the seal is kept oiled enough to function.
NoahsMyBro
29th November 2022, 22:11
SUCCESS!
Tonight I FINALLY got my old crankshaft seal removed.
Before attempting the work yet again tonight, I cleaned up the work area somewhat. Picked up and threw away all of the filthy, used paper towels, put all of the tools away, etc... Figured it would help my mental state and also be safer for the car and for me, preventing accidents that may happen with haphazard piles of tools and supplies balanced precariously all over the place.
I must have spent hours searching the 'net for tips, watching videos, and kept encountering the same suggestions, and nothing was working. Then I landed on this page (https://www.justanswer.com/mazda/5sndm-mazda-miata-replacing-front-cam-crank-oil-seals.html?r=impact%7C2003851%7CBlogger.com%20Tech %20Support%20-%20Text%20Link%7C&clickid=RLwX%3A6yxmxyNUCmRSXxxhSnMUkA0b1Spo2VU140&aff_sub_id=bing&aff_sub_id2=oc5A05L8E%2FcFrofF6SHThHwFSTNUPx%2F%2F VZ4af%2B3bT%2F7vPQYO6tvoC0OQdD9Z8bfJ&aff_sub_id3=&aff_sub_id4=&chat_text=&irgwc=1).
I've been on the 'net since the early-mid 90's and I my career is IT. I've developed a pretty keen sense for what websites are worthwhile and which usually aren't. Until tonight I'd have placed justanswers.com in the same category as answers.microsoft.com - almost always a waste of time.
But I took away from that thread the idea to use a simple punch, all over the old seal, repeatedly. After tackling the seal repeatedly with the punch almost completely around (couldn't really get to the small arc under the crankshaft) I grabbed the $0.68 paint can opener I'd bought last night at Home Depot, bent it back to approximately its original shape using a pair of pliers - I bent it up last night - and began to try and pull the seal out using the paint can opener.
Initially I saw no change but I spent another little while hitting it with the punch again, tried to pull it again, and SAW SOME MOVEMENT!
So, I repeated the process yet again, and eventually I managed to get the seal completely removed.
Next I cleaned the crankshaft and seal area up somewhat and tried to take some close-up pictures of the area, to begin to get an idea of just how badly I've nicked the relevant surfaces.
I'll come back and update this post with the pictures shortly.
This entire ordeal has had me depressed, and small successes like this brighten my mood significantly. I suspect that indicates something in my emotional makeup is unhealthy, but for now I'm savoring the triumph.
3MiataFamily
29th November 2022, 22:28
You have a very large captive audience
NoahsMyBro
29th November 2022, 22:29
Post crank seal removal pictures:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532214622_56cefc1246_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o36kdj)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532686666_8959ab7530_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o38Kx1)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52533158565_863c0caf15_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3baPc)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532686621_578d91ceac_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o38Kwe)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532965899_ebaf047ce0_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3abxn)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532686436_6fa1047242_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o38Kt3)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532965869_601bf44e49_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3abwR)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52533225633_a203d72bcc_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3bvKx)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52533158455_9079022f8a_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3baMi)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532214402_6687915192_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o36k9w)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532686461_a7ce9899b0_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o38Ktt)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52532965739_cd76844b5a_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o3abuB)
NoahsMyBro
29th November 2022, 22:39
Next questions:
I can't really tell how badly I might have nicked the seal surfaces. Do you see anything I shojld be concerned by? Assuming I have caused damage, what's my best approach to minimize resulting oil leaks?
Now that I've (I believe) gotten past all of the toughest parts of the job, I'm rarin' to go and move forward. Any reason I shouldn't move on to removing the water pump, tensioners, etc... now? Or would it be best for me to do whatever is necessary toward repairing potential damage to the crankshaft and seal surfaces before I remove those components?
Also - On Saturday I received my new boss pully (B6BF-11-400A), key (B3C7-11-317), and timing cog (B3C7-11-321).
The timing cog was packed in a box with a silica pad, sort of like what you'd expect to be packed with camera lenses, binoculars, or other sensitive items that you want to keep free of moisture. I found that curious, seeing as the part will live under the hood of a car, a not stable, dry, or gentle environment in any realistic scenario. Just seemed weird to me.
NoahsMyBro
29th November 2022, 22:42
You have a very large captive audience
:)
And to think I was hesitant to pull my fender liners back and clear out the debris from the wheel wells back when you talked me into that a year or two ago!
Lance Schall
29th November 2022, 23:16
Any reason I shouldn't move on to removing the water pump, tensioners, etc... now? Or would it be best for me to do whatever is necessary toward repairing potential damage to the crankshaft and seal surfaces before I remove those components?Inspect the crankshaft and install the new seal before you take the water pump off. Assuming you don't want to dribble coolant down the front of the engine and into the oil sump.
gtxhawaii
30th November 2022, 02:52
It's Pulley Boss. You need to gather Locitite 660 and 242 or 243 for a Loctite Fix. Use the Short Nose Crank directions by forum member hsue (Henry Sue). The Big Nose Crank directions seem to ba a fantasy thought experiment. Neither Loctite literature, or personal expeiments have 660 acting in the slughts manner as discussed in the BNC article. Epoxy does act like that, long experience in the inadequacy of epoxy crank nose fixs goes back a long way, including several failures within a couple of hundred miles at Flyin' Miata. You will have to adjust the parts count to you engine, and observe the obvious protocol of fitting the timing belt under the Pulley Boss before torquing the crank bolt.
I'd do some obsessive cleanup of your engine, there appears to be some black debris behind the seal position. Damaged stuff from the seal during your removal exercise?
the pics don't show the crank nose seal surface well. You are better placed to use magnifying glasses and loopes and as big a virety of lights as helps. to look for any scratches or gouges where the new seal apex will be tracking on the surface. Very fine damage can be sanded out with progressively finer grits of Al2O3 paper. The black aluminum oxide WetNDry paper used for a wide variety of hard surfaces needing worked smoother. Glass moves to finer stages of polishing powders, metals can generally be left to 1200 paper if 'lubed' by engine oil. Anything deeper can be filled with JB Weld after thorough cleaning, then sanded flush with the same papers, only using hard wood or stronger blocks, so the softer epoxy doesn't sand out leaving a dip. If damage seems too much for this, a Speedi-Sleeve is the quick and saner alternative. Again, not a procedure friendly to first time workers, so buy a couple spares, return if unused.
Regular users of the Speedi-Sleeves claim it's simple. I've been baffled by posted instructions. The concept couldn't be clearer, but details are absolutely essential to get right. Posts by members attempting to use them speak to typical 'instructions', only really clear after you have mastered the process. A familiar experience to anyone learning modern digital equipment. I attempt effective technical writing here, which seems rare even among professionals. If it's done right, you don't even notice the effort following them.
With luck, and observing some form of crank shielding during the work (the linked article mentions plastic caps, finding an effective size seems quite a challenge), your crank nose needs no such attention. My guitar pic size pieces of plastic drink bottles has served admirably through a number of related jobs.
The hammered edge of the crank nose keyway needs to be checked for fit in a standard size cog and Pulley Boss. I hesitate to recommend using your new parts, but they Are the right size, and will have to fit well. If the keyway edge is hammered so it's proud (looks so to me, it's expected.), it needs filing down to level with the undamaged rest of the crank nose that the cog and pulley fit over. Filing debris from this and any other metal work CAN NOT be allowed to work back into the seal space and end up going down the oil drain at the back, and enter the oil pan. I suggest modeling clay, and embedded string in the clay (for removal) as a barrier to observe this essential cleanliness.
The rest of the job is standard manual directed cleanup and assembly. I use wet silicone RTV as lube for the O-ring on the heater return pipe as it fits into the WP mixer manifold. I prefer the Mazda metal gasket for WPs, but whatever comes with the pump will work. The pros I watch all use at least one side of any gasket getting 'sticky' to keep them in place during assembly. Full time workers tend to use spray cans of gasket glue, I can't be buying these every job (they end to dry out when stored after opening), so use light wipes of the normal silicone RTV so many other places get as sealant, including the essential 6 dabs for the valve cover gasket.
I stopped trying to reuse old timing belt cover seals many Miatas ago. Once heat cycleded and oiled, they never fit well again. No rubber seals seems as clean underneath as with. Racers usually delete all but the lower TB cover (Timing degree scale molded in), and lots of Hondas never had covers at any time. A new set is over $50, suit your self.
On the off chance you don't have an inch-lb torque wrench yet, Get One. Chances of damaging a fastener, or undertorquing essential parts, is far more consequential than even the normal price HF $30 tool. Fancier tools start about $50, (Bike torque wrenches), the HF item is often on special at $11. The HF inch-lb tool has a SOFT click. Practice with the tool, at required setting, before every use, or get the expected, "We told you so." when something snaps.
Interesting someone chose dry packaging, instead of light grease on the cog. An uncorroded one is more confidence inspiring to install.
Torquing the crank bolt with a Loctite Fix underneath is considerably more challenging than with a good key, and normal, undamaged keyway. Study past threads discussing this, I'm a bit tired of typing to repeat all the alternatives. You do Have to maintain proper alignment of crank nose, key and cog/pulley boss through the torque procedure to have a spec alignment front engine assembly. I focus on locking the crank, then keeping pressure on the cog and pulley against the key, pushing the key clockwise against the remaining good wall of the crank nose keyway. If in doubt, you can always detorque the bolt and try again. Automotive industry fastener standards institute engineers maintain the Only way to use torque wrenches correctly is to finish setting (approaching final) torque with One, Smooth pull to tool indication; click, dial, needle, etc. NO check pull! If you aren't happy, back the bolt and try another smooth pull to spec torque.
3MiataFamily
30th November 2022, 04:53
:)
And to think I was hesitant to pull my fender liners back and clear out the debris from the wheel wells back when you talked me into that a year or two ago!
Hang in there....when you are ready for the next step drop me a PM. I will respond with a direct contact number ...much easier than 42 forum posts. I have done the FIX seven times...no failures that I am aware of.
NoahsMyBro
1st December 2022, 19:15
It's Pulley Boss. You need to gather Locitite 660 and 242 or 243 for a Loctite Fix. Use the Short Nose Crank directions by forum member hsue (Henry Sue). The Big Nose Crank directions seem to ba a fantasy thought experiment. Neither Loctite literature, or personal expeiments have 660 acting in the slughts manner as discussed in the BNC article. Epoxy does act like that, long experience in the inadequacy of epoxy crank nose fixs goes back a long way, including several failures within a couple of hundred miles at Flyin' Miata. You will have to adjust the parts count to you engine, and observe the obvious protocol of fitting the timing belt under the Pulley Boss before torquing the crank bolt.
I'd do some obsessive cleanup of your engine, there appears to be some black debris behind the seal position. Damaged stuff from the seal during your removal exercise?
the pics don't show the crank nose seal surface well. You are better placed to use magnifying glasses and loopes and as big a virety of lights as helps. to look for any scratches or gouges where the new seal apex will be tracking on the surface. Very fine damage can be sanded out with progressively finer grits of Al2O3 paper. The black aluminum oxide WetNDry paper used for a wide variety of hard surfaces needing worked smoother. Glass moves to finer stages of polishing powders, metals can generally be left to 1200 paper if 'lubed' by engine oil. Anything deeper can be filled with JB Weld after thorough cleaning, then sanded flush with the same papers, only using hard wood or stronger blocks, so the softer epoxy doesn't sand out leaving a dip. If damage seems too much for this, a Speedi-Sleeve is the quick and saner alternative. Again, not a procedure friendly to first time workers, so buy a couple spares, return if unused.
Regular users of the Speedi-Sleeves claim it's simple. I've been baffled by posted instructions. The concept couldn't be clearer, but details are absolutely essential to get right. Posts by members attempting to use them speak to typical 'instructions', only really clear after you have mastered the process. A familiar experience to anyone learning modern digital equipment. I attempt effective technical writing here, which seems rare even among professionals. If it's done right, you don't even notice the effort following them.
With luck, and observing some form of crank shielding during the work (the linked article mentions plastic caps, finding an effective size seems quite a challenge), your crank nose needs no such attention. My guitar pic size pieces of plastic drink bottles has served admirably through a number of related jobs.
The hammered edge of the crank nose keyway needs to be checked for fit in a standard size cog and Pulley Boss. I hesitate to recommend using your new parts, but they Are the right size, and will have to fit well. If the keyway edge is hammered so it's proud (looks so to me, it's expected.), it needs filing down to level with the undamaged rest of the crank nose that the cog and pulley fit over. Filing debris from this and any other metal work CAN NOT be allowed to work back into the seal space and end up going down the oil drain at the back, and enter the oil pan. I suggest modeling clay, and embedded string in the clay (for removal) as a barrier to observe this essential cleanliness.
The rest of the job is standard manual directed cleanup and assembly. I use wet silicone RTV as lube for the O-ring on the heater return pipe as it fits into the WP mixer manifold. I prefer the Mazda metal gasket for WPs, but whatever comes with the pump will work. The pros I watch all use at least one side of any gasket getting 'sticky' to keep them in place during assembly. Full time workers tend to use spray cans of gasket glue, I can't be buying these every job (they end to dry out when stored after opening), so use light wipes of the normal silicone RTV so many other places get as sealant, including the essential 6 dabs for the valve cover gasket.
I stopped trying to reuse old timing belt cover seals many Miatas ago. Once heat cycleded and oiled, they never fit well again. No rubber seals seems as clean underneath as with. Racers usually delete all but the lower TB cover (Timing degree scale molded in), and lots of Hondas never had covers at any time. A new set is over $50, suit your self.
On the off chance you don't have an inch-lb torque wrench yet, Get One. Chances of damaging a fastener, or undertorquing essential parts, is far more consequential than even the normal price HF $30 tool. Fancier tools start about $50, (Bike torque wrenches), the HF item is often on special at $11. The HF inch-lb tool has a SOFT click. Practice with the tool, at required setting, before every use, or get the expected, "We told you so." when something snaps.
Interesting someone chose dry packaging, instead of light grease on the cog. An uncorroded one is more confidence inspiring to install.
Torquing the crank bolt with a Loctite Fix underneath is considerably more challenging than with a good key, and normal, undamaged keyway. Study past threads discussing this, I'm a bit tired of typing to repeat all the alternatives. You do Have to maintain proper alignment of crank nose, key and cog/pulley boss through the torque procedure to have a spec alignment front engine assembly. I focus on locking the crank, then keeping pressure on the cog and pulley against the key, pushing the key clockwise against the remaining good wall of the crank nose keyway. If in doubt, you can always detorque the bolt and try again. Automotive industry fastener standards institute engineers maintain the Only way to use torque wrenches correctly is to finish setting (approaching final) torque with One, Smooth pull to tool indication; click, dial, needle, etc. NO check pull! If you aren't happy, back the bolt and try another smooth pull to spec torque.
I'm writing up for myself a shopping list and a clear, step-by-step re-write of your advice above, to make it easier for me to follow the instructions.
Where you write:
Very fine damage can be sanded out with progressively finer grits of Al2O3 paper. The black aluminum oxide WetNDry paper used for a wide variety of hard surfaces needing worked smoother. Glass moves to finer stages of polishing powders, metals can generally be left to 1200 paper if 'lubed' by engine oil.
do you really mean 1200 grit, or was that a typo? Searching on Amazon for Al203 sandpaper (first time I've heard of such, btw) I see a large # of items at lower grits, but have scrolled a bunch and not found such a high grit count yet.
Once I've completed my guide, my 'in my words' understanding of your tips, I'll post it back here. I'm hoping you'll take the time to let me know if I have anything wrong, thanks.
NoahsMyBro
1st December 2022, 20:45
shopping list:
Loctite 660
Loctite 242 or 243 -- WHICH SHOULD I GET?
Al203 paper assorted grits, up to 1200 -- ???
Gather Locitite 660 and 242 or 243 for a Loctite Fix. Use the Short Nose Crank directions by forum member hsue (Henry Sue). You will have to adjust the parts count to you engine, and observe the obvious protocol of fitting the timing belt under the Pulley Boss before torquing the crank bolt.
> http://www.rivercityroad.com/garage/crank/softop.html
> https://www.miata.net/garage/hsue/Loctite%20Crank%20Fix%20-%20Part%201.htm
> https://www.miata.net/garage/hsue/Loctite%20Crank%20Fix%20-part%202.htm
From the soft.html page above: 4. Squeeze a little Loctite Quick Metal into the keyway and fit the key. Fill the damaged part of the crankshaft keyway with Quick Metal. >>> Will this cause the key to be non-removable? Will it result in the key and keyway being effectively 'glued/welded' together? Don't I want to keep the ability to remove the key so that the oil seal can be replaced in the future?
Do some obsessive cleanup of your engine, there appears to be some black debris behind the seal position. Damaged stuff from the seal during your removal exercise
You are better placed to use magnifying glasses and loupes and as big a variety of lights as helps to look for any scratches or gouges where the new seal apex will be tracking on the surface.
{Use borescope with phone to carefully examine interior of crank, crank seal surfaces, and outer seal-side surfaces of crank nose}
Very fine damage can be sanded out with progressively finer grits of Al2O3 paper. The black aluminum oxide WetNDry paper used for a wide variety of hard surfaces needing worked smoother. Glass moves to finer stages of polishing powders, metals can generally be left to 1200 paper if 'lubed' by engine oil. Anything deeper can be filled with JB Weld after thorough cleaning, then sanded flush with the same papers, only using hard wood or stronger blocks, so the softer epoxy doesn't sand out leaving a dip. If damage seems too much for this, a Speedi-Sleeve is the quick and saner alternative. Again, not a procedure friendly to first time workers, so buy a couple spares, return if unused.
I'm unclear on this entire section (#3).
* What is WetNDry paper? Where can I find 1200 grit?
* Is the idea that for any areas where I see nicks/damage, I sand the surface smooth to try and eliminate the imperfection, using JBWeld if necessary to fill in any deep gouges?
The hammered edge of the crank nose keyway needs to be checked for fit in a standard size cog and Pulley Boss. I hesitate to recommend using your new parts, but they Are the right size, and will have to fit well. If the keyway edge is hammered so it's proud (looks so to me, it's expected.) if the keyway is proud? I don't understand what you mean here
it needs filing down to level with the undamaged rest of the crank nose that the cog and pulley fit over.
Is this the same thing being explained in the linked pages above?:
As far as possible using a small file clean up the keyway damage, removing burrs etc. from the area where the pulley seats. Take care not to file the undamaged side - this will be your reference for correct alignment during re-assembly. If the pulley keyway is damaged then it is best to use a new one. Using emery tape (not to fine because a coarser surface works better with this repair method) linish the crankshaft to a smooth slip-fit.
You do Have to maintain proper alignment of crank nose, key and cog/pulley boss through the torque procedure to have a spec alignment front engine assembly.
I went ahead and bought the crank bolt tool from Flyin' Miata. In hindsight, I wish I'd bought it before beginning the original job!
the Only way to use torque wrenches correctly is to finish setting (approaching final) torque with One, Smooth pull to tool indication; click, dial, needle, etc. NO check pull! If you aren't happy, back the bolt and try another smooth pull to spec torque.
Understood
Lance Schall
1st December 2022, 21:58
Get Loctite 243. The difference between 242 and 243 is the Primer is already in the 243. Primer increases the bond strength to some materials like plastics and oily parts. With the Primer already in Loctite 243 that saves you from buying the little spray can of Loctite 7649 Primer.
gtxhawaii
2nd December 2022, 06:39
Wet-N-Dry paper is dark grey back, black front, made so it works well dry and better wet. Water or light oil'kerosene, etc, washes grit out of the paper so it doesn't clog, and keeps cutting as the paper wears finer. Any auto paint or boat store should have it. All surfboard/boat making shops uses it. You won't need any abrasive paper if you don't screw the pooch pulling the seal, cleaning up, and fitting the new seal. The graduated grades of paper are for small scratches in the seal surface. Anything that doesn't sand out directly should get a Speedi-Sleeve, not a repaired surface. Faster and a better final surface. If you have no experience sanding out surfaces with finer and finer paper (Normal work doing any auto body repair), maybe a Speedi-sleeve for any damage. Use all the help you can find to examine the seal surface of the crank nose. Magnifying glass, Loope, various lights. Younger eyes if yours are not doing great just now.
The only scratches needing attention are right where the apex of the oil seal has left a polished track on the cranknose. If the old seal was flush mounted, the new one will track the same place if flushed properly. "Flush" here means 'level' with the face of the seal carrier/oil pump.
A 'proud' edge of the keyway is hammered metal sticking up (proud) above the normal machined surface. Common word in machining, medicine and dealing with horses, and others, in our culture's past. Slowly losing favor among city folk.
I'd use metal cutting files. Double and triple cut files are faster. Single cut can produce much smoother work with the first tool, but are extremely rare, in my experience. Files on fingernail clippers are the only single cuts I see normally. Which are probably not hard enough for crank work. Lots of tools I've long enjoyed are difficult to impossible to find now.
Hard blocks with aluminum paper generate too much loose grit for me (In this location), and take longer. But I've used both tools most of my life, for hobby and work. If uncomfortable with either, post up asking for alternatives.
If you do a Loctite Fix, you are gluing in the oil seal. It's good for quite a while, or not at all. The Loctite Fix comes apart, and you redo it with the same parts, if the crank bolt hasn't failed torque again, and new damage is present. The alternative is a different crank shaft, new or used, and the associated full bottom rebuild. I'll risk another Fix, specially as all the ones I've done properly* did not fail, and one aged out the oil seal behind the repair.
If you run into difficulties on the job, you are welcome to ask my phone number. Most plans are essentially free in all of N. America. A couple of minutes conversation can convey more information than pages of text.
*My first Miata Fix had massive damage (bellmouthed crank nose threading) and I over sat the key as well. The key being pushed hard into the fly cut(curved) back of the keyway, it tipped the Cog somewhat. I reckoned it wasn't going to last anyway, and was curious about the tilt. Engine held well for >40k miles, (Including seasons of autocrossing) then loosened. I repeated the Loctite Fix, with a properly sat key, another new cog, key and bolt, and that fix was about 20-30K and running, when the body rusted out. Zero interest in Loctite Fixed 1.6s with 200k on them, so it went to the crusher.
tomthedog
4th December 2022, 02:38
Based on my 660 repair, I would recommend sourcing a flat washer ( or similar) having the same inner diameter as the crankshaft. You'd likely have to trim it up a bit so it could slide over the damaged area. This would highlight the proud areas of the crank key way slot. Jewlers files or sharpening stones can be used so as not to fatigue the temper\hardness of the crank.
Hope this helps.
gtxhawaii
4th December 2022, 07:17
Based on my 660 repair, I would recommend sourcing a flat washer ( or similar) having the same inner diameter as the crankshaft. You'd likely have to trim it up a bit so it could slide over the damaged area. This would highlight the proud areas of the crank key way slot. Jewelers files or sharpening stones can be used so as not to fatigue the temper\hardness of the crank.
Hope this helps.
I like the idea of a washer with the exact ID as the crank nose OD. The easiest way to build an accurate template? Only I'd then cut the washer in half, and use a half as a template over the keyways, to pinpoint proud keyway wall height. Filing the proud area very slightly below ideal/original crank nose roundness is fine by me.
ANY chance the whole of the relatively small BNC cranknose-to-ID of cog gap will get filled with 660 all the way around, would have me doing tapped holes in the cog, for a puller, as discussed by Lance in his posts on the build of his engine. Dry gaps there can corrode to major issues removing the cog, Loctite Liquid Metal has to be as challenging to overcome. Pullers with substantial thread screws (I'd prefer M8/fine) produce serious problem solving pull in awkward locations for other tools.
Billy Kimber
4th December 2022, 11:08
Check out Belzona. It is used for repairing shafts and bearing surfaces and has been in commercial use for decades. Amazing stuff.
gtxhawaii
4th December 2022, 17:22
Check out Belzona. It is used for repairing shafts and bearing surfaces and has been in commercial use for decades. Amazing stuff.
"Belzona" is a company and family of products. They recommend 1111 for keyway restoration. What threw me off were duplicious advertizing in their videos. The keyway restore video shows good technique, but he mixes at least 10 times the product required for the repair. I'm a wee bit skeptical this is necessary, or financially provident.
The comparison of adhering a large flange base bracket on a sheet metal tank using their 1111 product vs perimeter welding the same design bracket shows what even I know is wholly inappropriate welding technique, running a long bead with too strong of arc, which predictably burned through the thin tank metal. Tack welds, spaced around the flange, slowly building to full flange perimeter coverage, and a lot less aggressive arc, should work well. People do weld on these tanks regularly, with no burn through.
Belzona includes full product engineering data, unlike the comperable product, easy to find JB Weld. Which only states tensile strength (Very close for the JB Weld Syringe and TwinTube) their slow cure metal filled epoxy.) No compression strength listing is not encouraging, but typical quality epoxies show reasonably similar tension and compression strengths.
The history of JB Weld in Miata keyway repairs is cautionary, not encouraging. To wit, no known successes in my reading. Flyin' Miata tried a few back in the day, no data on which JB Weld product, but FM is no stranger to the range of metal techniques using modern materials. Crank nose failures occurred within a couple of hundred miles. I'll assume the then spec torque on the crank bolt was the manual 80-87 ft-lbs, instead of the revised (1991 Mazda crank repair paper, now 'lost', raising the spec to 97-104 ft-lbs. Possibly a factor, but a lot of Loctite Fixes have succeeded with the original manual spec torque.
The Belzona 1111 has the advantage of far lower toxicity (No solvents), but I still observe normal total isolation of epoxy products from my skin and other flesh. Barrier gloves are just a good start. Full coverage clothes are normal. If not in a well ventilated space, I put on my VOC labeled activated carbon filter face mask. I've worked with polyesters and epoxies most of my adult life (Obviously at this point, Safely.), and understand the materials from both engineering design, and production worker perspectives.
I'm interested in the Belzona 1111, but would not be inclined to be a test dummy for a Loctite Fix replacement use. If the Belzona had remarkably better specs than JB Weld I'd be more interested. BOTH have more 'strength' than Loctite Liquid Metal in standard engineering tests, just not the long history of success in the field for keyway repairs.
There is value in looking at the Belzona.com video for keyway repair, the worker demonstrating how to remove proud metal on the damaged side of the keyway. The video FAILS to show any gap it will fill, which inattention easily allows changing the key location during the epoxy repair and thus position of the surrounding engaged part's (not shown) registration to the shaft. A couple of degrees won't matter for some machines, it can on automobiles where cam and ignition timing are best optimized. I'd expect better of a video intended to recruit industry use. The worker should have taken great care to force the key to the good wall of the keyway, not just fully down to the floor of the keyway being repaired. Normally, damaged keyways show only one damaged wall, where force transmission is one way such as with cam drives for car engines. The video shows far more work on the suspect wall when preping the surfaces, but doesn't continue this attention when fitting the key and repair compound. I'm also a bit leery of how far back the square end key was placed in the round back of the keyway. Having learned the importance of these 'small' details the hard way, I expect better of a professional demonstration.
NoahsMyBro
2nd January 2023, 10:23
I didn’t abandon this, and didn’t die.
I did get sick - tested negative for Covid but I’m skeptical that was an accurate diagnosis. Was out of it for a while and still have a lingering cough, and food doesn’t taste as good. On the upside I’ve lost about 5 lbs.
Anyway, it’s been very slow going but I’m putting things back together now, and confident enough that I’m contemplating buying a new set of spark plugs and wires just to complement the rest of the work.
To get to the point though-
I just sprayed down my crankshaft position sensor plate with Brakleen and wiped it down. On the side that I believe is the backside (I.e., faces the back of the car) half of the disc is silver where the black paint has been rubbed off, while the other half of the disc still shows black paint.
I’m curious why that would be, if it’s normal, etc… Wondering if maybe that occurred because the car was driven with the fubar’ed keyway for an unknown amount of time and miles?
Picture below.
Other questions -
I haven’t checked and double-checked alignments yet and haven’t put things back together yet, but last night I slipped on the new timing belt for the first time. I’ve read numerous articles about this, watched videos, etc… and many talk about counting the teeth, and there should be 19 teeth between a couple of points, etc… My belt was tight enough that I can’t believe there would be any way to mount it and have a different number of teeth between two points - there just isn’t enough slack for it to be any tighter or looser. I guess I’ll figure that out when I get to that point.
I didn’t take as many pictures or label as thoroughly as I should have. I have a flat metal disc with a large hole in the center, four smaller bolt holes (assuming) around the center, and a single much smaller hole. This disc fits perfectly over the crank pulley boss; I’m *assuming* that is where this goes. What does this plate do, what purpose does it serve? Is it possible to install it backwards and if so then how can I tell which side is front?
There is a short coolant hose that connects the bottom-right outlet of the coolant neck (sticking out of the front of the engine) to a pipe that runs back underneath the exhaust manifold. What is that coolant line for? Seems too small to be for any sort of significant cooling.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52602614755_04e4089378.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2o9j9HH)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52602586770_91b663cd2e.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/2zVV11508U)
3MiataFamily
2nd January 2023, 11:28
The silver disc with the four holes goes inside the front of the crank pulley...not directly onto the pulley boss.
Call me if you have any questions
gtxhawaii
3rd January 2023, 01:11
The small hose may be misconnected. It normally goes to a metal T fitting, joining a hose from the throttle body, combined flow goes to the water pump Return Manifold, joining the heater coolant exit, the pipe coming under the exhaust runners. The coolant flow through the throttle body keeps the mechanical idle control up to date on block and head temps. The hose from the bottom of the thermostat housing is a low flow bypass, so the thermostat sees the early heating of coolant as the head warms. Without this, there is a dead spot between closed thermostat and head, creating lag opening flow as the engine warms. Totally blocked hose exit produces a spike overheat in the head before heat conduction through the stagnant coolant finally opens the thermostat, and normal heat control via the thermostat functions.
The turbo 323GTX (B6T engine, father of the Miata B6E) managed with a bleed hole in the thermostat plate, with a 'jiggle pin' in the hole to reduce flow and encourage turbulence. This applies to any thermostat installation which is slow to react to initial engine warmup. Particularly remote thermostats in Miata Coolant Reroutes. The stock NA t-stat in the middle of a long hose is a FAIL here. Function wise, most any thermostat works well in the design location for Miata head, in the inset in the back of the head under the Coolant outlet, which has the thermostat directly exposed to moving coolant in the head. This is/was stock for all transverse Bseries engines, particularly the B6T and BPT. This isn't done much now because of the Miata firewall, making thermostat swaps challenging and often bloody. Extended barrel nuts, like the lower one in NA6 coil mounts, and gearwrench tools, mostly remove the challenge.
NoahsMyBro
8th January 2023, 13:31
So I’m FINALLY putting everything back together.
Per the Veloce Enthusiast Workshop Manual (pg3:40) the 10mm crankshaft pulley bolts are supposed to be torque down to 109-151 ‘lbfin’. I’m interpreting that to mean ~110 ft-lb.
That seems very high and I’m scared I’m going to break the bolts off.
Do you guys torque the crankshaft pulley bolts down when reattaching the pulley to the engine, or do you just get the bolts as tight as you can and go with it?
Lance Schall
8th January 2023, 13:40
That would be [pounds (force)-inch] or more typically [in-lb]. NOT ft-lb
I think the vibration beats the little bolts to death. Many of us up-rate these bolts to Class 10.9 or Class 12.9 at the first opportunity.
NoahsMyBro
8th January 2023, 13:41
Thanks Lance.
3MiataFamily
8th January 2023, 13:56
Lance beat me to it...you are correct in thinking 110 lb was high...inch/lb is correct...a little blue threadlocker on the bolts will help also
Remember...when in doubt, feel free to call
Lance Schall
8th January 2023, 13:57
Thanks Lance.Right on, brother! :cool: Now you can understand what I was up to in post #87.
NoahsMyBro
8th January 2023, 14:38
I didnt take enough photos as I took things apart.
The rubber hose that runs from under the thermostat neck to the underside of the throttle - does it run in front of, behind, out through the middle of the wire bundle?
And the bolts for the thermostat housing - why are they different? Which bolt should be on which side ?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52615479779_e91fc95e14.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oas63t)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52615708428_5c0276d5be.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oatg1G)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52615708463_31aca0614a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oatg2i)
3MiataFamily
8th January 2023, 14:59
Thermostat housing...one is a bolt..the other is a stud and nut, but the stud unscrewed...just put it back in
NoahsMyBro
8th January 2023, 15:09
Thanks 3MF.
Lance Schall
8th January 2023, 15:09
Hose in front
How's your thermostat extension housing? If you break an ear off of it, let me know. I was straightening up around here and now have a brand new one for a 1.8 sitting on my desk. Of course, I have a 1.6 with coolant reroute, so no chance of ever needing this. I'll give it to the next pitiful bastard who needs it.
3MiataFamily
8th January 2023, 15:55
His pic a couple posts up shows the housing intact...and the time of the pic.
Lance Schall
8th January 2023, 16:15
His pic a couple posts up shows the housing intact...and the time of the pic.Maybe OP is not the "next pitiful bastard":D I know you are a home for wayward Miatas, do you need a spare?
3MiataFamily
8th January 2023, 17:35
Thanks for the offer...but I have more of those than you do...lol!
NoahsMyBro
12th January 2023, 00:36
SHE LIVES!!!!!
[SHORT VERSION BELOW, BUT I LIKE TO TALK SO FIRST THE LONG VERSION]
LONG VERSION:
Monday night I was ready to get this greek epic of a project finally completed. I installed the new accessory belts, installed new spark plugs and wires, grabbed my thermostat and ...discovered I'd somehow never bought a new thermostat gasket. D'oh!
So yesterday morning at about 8:30am I called my friendly Mazda dealer parts desk and ordered a new OEM thermostat gasket. My friend at the counter, Scott, told me he'd have it next day (so, today).
So this evening I cut out from work about 20 minutes early and picked up the thermostat gasket. My battery had been disconnected and unused for 2 months, so I connected my battery tender to the battery and then after dinner I ran over to AutoZone and bought a jug of Valvoline 10w30, and ventured back into my garage for some fun. When I returned home the battery tender was showing a solid green light so I disconnected it and reconnected the car's positive cable to the battery.
I installed the radiator, made sure the drain plug was closed tight, bolted the anti-sway bar back up, installed new upper and lower radiator hoses, washed and reinstalled the coolant overflow tank, reinstalled the air tube from the air filter to the throttle, replaced the air filter, and changed the oil and filter.
I then summoned up my courage and tried starting the car for the first time since the first week of November.
The engine cranked solid and strong, but never turned over. I sat in the driver seat trying to think of everything I'd done and what could possibly cause that behavior. Couldn't come up with an explanation, so I got out of the car and looked under the hood for anything I might have disconnected.
A-ha! The cam angle sensor was disconnected. I reconnected it, and tried again to start the engine.
SUCCESS!!!
The engine started right up. Idled fine. Revved fine.
PROBLEMS:
Sounded a little bit noisy, but I'm not sure if that's my imagination and it always sounded like that, or if it is in fact noisier than normal.
Check Engine Light is on. Haven't yet pulled the code, will probably do that tomorrow.
There is a fast, seemingly big coolant leak, that I think looks like it is coming from where the thermostat housing attaches to the thermostat neck. I wasn't sure which way to orient the thermostat gasket (front / back). One side of the gasket had a slightly raised green ring around the middle - does it matter which direction it faces? Can the gasket still be used if I take the thermostat housing off and then put it back on again? I tried to take pictures/video of the leak but I couldn't really get a good angle to show where the leak seems to be coming from.
SHORT VERSION:
Put things back together.
Changed oil and filter.
Filled with coolant.
Started engine. Engine starts, runs, but CEL is lit, maybe noisy (or might be my imagination) and bad coolant leak by thermostat, I think between thermostat housing and neck.
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/52622535960_758854332e_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ob5fAL)
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/52622100551_64f3e23da2_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ob32aH)
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/52621589482_3829bdd65a_w.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oaZpfb)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52621589162_2d998171d5_w.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/40008j9CTm)
Stoffl
12th January 2023, 05:30
PROBLEMS:
Sounded a little bit noisy, but I'm not sure if that's my imagination and it always sounded like that, or if it is in fact noisier than normal.
There is a fast, seemingly big coolant leak, that I think looks like it is coming from where the thermostat housing attaches to the thermostat neck. I wasn't sure which way to orient the thermostat gasket (front / back). One side of the gasket had a slightly raised green ring around the middle - does it matter which direction it faces? Can the gasket still be used if I take the thermostat housing off and then put it back on again? I tried to take pictures/video of the leak but I couldn't really get a good angle to show where the leak seems to be coming from.
Grats buddy
Lifters ticking rather violent because they're draine of oil ? Should get better once it's up to temperature or driven for 10-15min
*edit* Actually after watching your video that engine sounds fine
From experience - you'd have to meticulously clean and probably even sand the thermostat housing surface to get it absolutely flat. Otherwise the gasket just won't seal correctly. Ask me how i know. Same OEM Mazda gasket.
Buddys from my local MX-5 club told me to just use an additional thin layer of gasket silicone on the sealing surfaces since this is apparently very common on 30 year old B6/BP engines.
*edit* I don't think the orientation is relevant, the original gasket from the 90s had a tab. I assume the current one (no tab) just replaced these.
https://i.imgur.com/AG02ohl.png
Hard to guess but I think the noses are pointing towards right in the parts diagrams, so possibly with the green ring facing away from the engine.
https://i.imgur.com/YFZbD9X.png
https://i.imgur.com/EbCJy5T.png
flylow7f39
12th January 2023, 05:55
The '92 Factory Service manual states: "WITH PRINTED FACE (GREEN) SIDE TOWARD THERMOSTAT".
Always thoroughly clean and inspect surfaces for pits, cracks, and warpage before reinstalling. Rubbing surfaces with the edge of a fingernail a good idea that divulge imperfections your eyes might miss.
Stoffl
12th January 2023, 08:00
The '92 Factory Service manual states: "WITH PRINTED FACE (GREEN) SIDE TOWARD THERMOSTAT".
Interesting - you're right. My german '89 mazda service manual says the same thing.
I guess they initially had different gaskets for B6 and BP then ?
3MiataFamily
12th January 2023, 09:04
:thumbs:
And I didn't get any more phone calls....good for you
NoahsMyBro
12th January 2023, 09:22
Yes, thanks 3MF, Lance, and everyone else that stuck by me and helped me through this.
I really couldn’t have done it without you guys.
flylow7f39
12th January 2023, 11:20
The '92 Factory Service manual states: "WITH PRINTED FACE (GREEN) SIDE TOWARD THERMOSTAT".
... My german '89 mazda service manual says the same thing.
I guess they initially had different gaskets for B6 and BP then ?
'94 Factory Service Manual also shows the gasket with a tab. Thermostat gasket with tab is no longer available from Mazda here in the US. Mazda Part Number: B62115173 is listed for '90-'05 for both the thermostat and the coolant outlet on rear of the head.
Stoffl
12th January 2023, 11:24
'94 Factory Service Manual shows a gasket with a tab. Thermostat gasket with tab is no longer available from Mazda here in the US. Mazda Part Number: B62115173 is listed for '90-'05 for both the thermostat and the coolant outlet on rear of the head.
Aight thanks for confirming. :thumbs:
NoahsMyBro
12th January 2023, 19:06
EDIT: Never mind. As soon as I began loosening the thermostat housing bolts coolant began spilling out and it’s the exact place I was seeing yesterday.
———
Would it be harmful if I run the engine with the air intake tube removed from the car? This also means the hose from the side of the valve cover is just hanging out, not connected anywhere, and the short hose between the throttle and the air tube is disconnected.
I want to have a better view to definitively identify where my coolant leak is; wondering the ramifications of briefly running the engine with the tube removed.
Thanks
Lance Schall
12th January 2023, 19:56
It won't run with the intake tube missing.
NoahsMyBro
12th January 2023, 21:21
Status update:
I removed the thermostat, sanded the surfaces of the housing and the outlet it connects to, and then tried to apply a thin layer of grey permatex. Only succeeded in making a mess with the permatex - it wouldnt stick to the surfaces at all, no matter how much I cleaned them and wiped them down. Then I tried cleaning them with my almost empty spray can of Brakleen. Still no joy.
Then, feeling like an idiot, I tried seating the permatex on THE GASKET. Duh!!!
That worked a lot better, but wasnt perfect; there was still a small spot of the gasket that was a little bit wet and the permatex wouldnt stick.
I bolted things back up, tighter than I was comfortable with, and then put the air tube back in place and refilled the coolant that had poured out (into a Chinese food soup container!) while I had the thermostat out.
Started the engine and this time saw no leaking coolant!
I moved things around in my garage to clear a path to the driveway, lowered the car off of the jack stands, invited my daughter to accompany me, and set off for s drive!!!
Things arent as wonderful as I wanted though. 🙁
* The CEL is still lit. I havent checked it yet. I know I need to do so. I was hoping it was just a side effect of me trying to start the engine with the CAS unplugged. And I didnt want to kneel down to crawl under the dash to fish out the ODBII port and plug it in.
* I drove around my neighborhood for about 15 minutes. Roads ranged from residential to 40-50mph avenues. Was about 50°f, rainy. At stops I smelled something burning. First it smelled like coolant - figured it was likely just coolant that had leaked or spilled while I was working on things. Eventually I stopped smelling coolant, but then began smelling something burning, possibly the accessory belts. That smell didnt go away, and I cut my drive short and returned home to the garage.
* The car feels very sluggish getting up to speed.
So Im happy the car is again drivable, Im amused at how short the car seems after it was on jack stands for two months, and Im worried about the issues above, but Ill dig into them later, not tonight. First will be to just get under the dash and identify the CEL.
NoahsMyBro
13th January 2023, 08:51
Just started the car up in the driveway and pulled codes. Scrolling through the display on my Actron CP9125 ODBII PocketScan:
1 Code:
P0340
MIL ON
MONITRS
3 Inc
Catlyst
O2 Snsr
EGR
4 Ready
Misfire
Fuel
Comp
O2 Htr
I think the correct way to read the above is that I have 1 code -> P0340, the CEL (MIL - malfunction indicator light) is lit, the car has 3 & 4 monitors available; one of these sets is the continuous and the other is the non-continuous monitors included in the ODBII system.
SO - 1 code >> PO340.
Camshaft Position Sensor malfunction.
THIS MAKES SENSE.
The first time I tried to start the engine the CAS was unplugged.
So now I'm left to wonder why the car feels sluggish and why it smells like I'm burning fan belts.
Is it realistic that if I adjusted one or both of the belts too tight, that would affect how the engine performs? Seems to me a too tight belt would result in the belt failing quickly, but I can't believe that would be strong enough to slow down the engine. Am I wrong?
Alternatively, if a belt is too loose could it be slipping, causing friction that results in me smelling the belt burning/melting? But that certainly wouldn't affect the engine power, right?
What's a good way to confirm my belts are adjusted right?
The engine seems to idle smoothly, at 1k rpm when it was cold. In the garage, not driving, it seemed to rev just fine, perfectly responsive.
When I took it for a drive last night it just 'felt' sluggish when I would try to accelerate from a stop. I wonder now if that's just my imagination and I'm over-worrying about nothing.
3MiataFamily
13th January 2023, 09:50
The sluggish feeling is not the alternator belt or PS belt
More likely your timing is off...either at the cams or the ignition timing...or both.
Normal ignition timing is with the CAS about centered in the adjustment slot. After all the work you have done, I would be looking at the cam timing
Stoffl
13th January 2023, 09:52
Disconnect the battery, push brake pedal for 30seconds then reconnect the battery to clear the stored errors.
If there's no cel error then yeah, it was just from the initial start without cas.
toolinalong
13th January 2023, 18:35
Check the ignition timing first ! ?
STO962
13th January 2023, 20:48
Disconnect the battery, push brake pedal for 30seconds then reconnect the battery to clear the stored errors.
If there's no cel error then yeah, it was just from the initial start without cas.
Or just use the OBD2 reader to clear the code. Much easier and faster that way.
Stoffl
14th January 2023, 01:20
Right...
We never got obdii NA's around here :O
NoahsMyBro
15th January 2023, 17:23
Ok, I was able to get a timing light today.
Wednesday night I started the car, it idled fine, revved fine in driveway, but didn’t feel right while driving.
Twice yesterday and today I started it up just to move it a few feet in the garage (to clear the hanging hardtop, so I could open the hood), and both times the engine seemed to run rough and not have a steady idle.
I’ve read the Garage article about setting timing, and also watched the car passion channel (YouTube) video, and also reviewed the instructions in my Enthusiasts Manual book.
I *don’t find* a notch on my crank pulley. There is a small white dot on the front-facing side of the pulley, but nothing I can find on the edge. It’s a 96 M if that matters.
EDIT: I've placed the car in neutral, pkg brake engaged, and am rotating the engine (clockwise, only) using a breaker bar and 21mm socket on the crank pulley bolt.
Also, when I reassembled everything I noticed the plastic timing gauge at the top-right of the pulley seemed crooked. The plastic piece was cracked and I figured that was the cause, and moved on. Now I’m guessing that is less ‘ignorable’ than I’d hoped.
I guess I’m going to try and see where the white dot lined up with the timing marks, and will go from there. I will edit this post to add pics shortly.
If any of you think this should be a new thread, specifically about the timing, just say so and I’ll make a new post.
EDIT 3: with more light shining on the subject I just noticed two tiny engraved marks on my pulley. Adding white out to them now…
Pictures:
Crankshaft pulley and timing gauge. Note the white-ish dot on the front edge of the crank pulley - do you think that is the timing mark I should be looking for?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52629703930_006edd32f8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2obGZos)
Crank pulley with belt
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52629515054_f7ce3d45fd.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/i85e4b7Z40)
Sanity check - did I connect the spark plug wires in the correct order?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52628749747_f5fbf35fbc.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/1T8GhB39Hk)
Two pics of the CAS. I haven't touched this yet, but assume I'm going to have to do so.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52629703940_de520c9802.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/WL27Mqt551)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52628749752_11be09fa94.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/3DboH89947)
A picture of our two new kittens, because why not, I'm already in my Flickr anyway. :-)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52629269426_31d9f967b5.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/82T4Se760R)
3MiataFamily
15th January 2023, 18:07
Look in your first pic showing the timing marks...see the little notch in the crank pulley just to the left of your TDC on the cover...that is your timing mark. It's hard to see unless you know what you are looking for.
NoahsMyBro
15th January 2023, 21:56
I used to love this car.
Now I'm really trying to passionately hate the previous owners and their mechanics rather than hate the car. Whoever worked on this poor thing before me I really think believed there is no such thing as too tight.
I let the engine run for about 15 minutes to get it warmed up. Next, I turned it off, placed a short piece of wire between the GND and TEN spots in the diagnostic jumper box by the driver side fender and re-started the engine.
The idle was so low it was barely there and the engine was having trouble not stalling out. So I adjusted the screw at the top of the throttle (the screw that points toward the passenger side fender). I needed to turn this screw a lot to get the idle up to about 800rpm. Considering all was fine before I began this job a few weeks ago, and the idle was almost always consistently right at about 850 for the 6 years I've owned the car, this worries me.
Once the idle was raised and the engine wasn't going to stall I used the timing light to have a look at the marks and see where we're at. Video is linked, but it's hard to see things in the video. Both marks were well to the right (clockwise) of the plastic timing gauge marks.
VIDEO:
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/52629884550_880081c292.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2obHV5A)
OK, so then I need to adjust the timing.
Which brings me to my burning anger for the previous mechanics. As I understand things the long 12mm bolt on the CAS is simply there to lock it in place and keep it from moving on its own. First I couldn't fid any way to get a tool on the bolt. Ran out to Home Depot and bought a non-angled 12mm wrench, and also a 'stubby' short metric wrench set with box-ends ('ring'?) on one end and traditional wrench ends at the opposite end.
Returned home and still couldn't get the tools around the bolt.
To try and get easier access I've removed the top two bolts from the coil pack. That didn't allow me to remove the pack (I assume there is another bolt somewhere at the bottom.)
Finally I managed to get the ring end of the stubby wrench around the bolt. And it wouldn't budge. So I took another, longer wrench with rings on both ends and hooked one end around the stubby wrench end pointing up toward the ceiling, and I stuck a long, hefty screwdriver through the opposite end of the larger wrench, and tugged mightily. That finally allowed me to break the adjustment bolt loose-ish. Did that one more time and the bolt finally loosened.
And now I STILL can't make the CAS move, at all. Should it twist easily?
Every time I'm hopeful that I can finally get the car back on the road something new slaps me in the face. I'm having a hard time keeping my spirits up with this thing, and trying not to conclude I should have just taken the car to the mechanic for the original work.
So, if you want to skip over all of my whining, my questions are:
now that I've loosened the CAS lock bolt, should it or shouldn't it twist easily?
is it normal that my idle dropped drastically when I added the jumper to the diagnostic box between GND and TEN?
if my timing marks appeared far to the right of 10°BTDC, that tells me my timing is too far advanced, right? SO why would that result in the car being laggy? I thought that should increase performance, at the risk of pinging, rod knock, etc..., but I didn't notice any of that.
Finally, one nifty happy bonus note - Wednesday night (I think) was when I finally buttoned this thing up and took it for the first test drive. I jacked the car up to remove the jack stands, then lowered it and drove about 7.9 miles (in a previous post I wrote about 10 miles I think, but just used an online route planner to measure my drive, was about 7.9 miles).
While struggling with the CAS lock bolt tonight I dropped a wrench and had to kneel down and reach for it under the car. Where I found my FM jack adapter, still around the pinch weld by the front tire, just hanging there. Ha! Karma smiled upon me.
Lance Schall
15th January 2023, 22:03
Soggy performance and timing marks off in left field? Doesn't sound to me like the idle screw and CAS jumped to new unfavorable positions. Seems more like a cam cog was misindexed a tooth during the timing belt replacement.
Yes, the CAS should rotate with the adjustment screw loose. The screw is always tight from galvanic corrosion or whatever, not because the last guy hogged it down.
NoahsMyBro
15th January 2023, 22:08
Ugh, so I guess that means I need to take everything apart again.
Well at least now I have all of the necessary tools and know where everything is.
🙂
3MiataFamily
15th January 2023, 22:37
Hang in there....you are close
Stoffl
16th January 2023, 03:13
Pictures:
Crankshaft pulley and timing gauge. Note the white-ish dot on the front edge of the crank pulley - do you think that is the timing mark I should be looking for?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52629703930_006edd32f8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2obGZos)
Impossible to open that picture and can only see the low resoution embedded one so not sure but with some imagination i can see both the yellow dot and the white mark for TDC and 10° BTDC
Stoffl
16th January 2023, 03:22
Soggy performance and timing marks off in left field? Doesn't sound to me like the idle screw and CAS jumped to new unfavorable positions. Seems more like a cam cog was misindexed a tooth during the timing belt replacement.
Yes, the CAS should rotate with the adjustment screw loose. The screw is always tight from galvanic corrosion or whatever, not because the last guy hogged it down.
This. Sounds like your cam timing is off.
huesmann
16th January 2023, 09:21
One should be able to run one's fingernail(s) around the circumference of the pulley and find the timing notches. Sometimes the paint is obscured by grime, so it's helpful to re-mark (can dab paint and sand off any "overspray").
NoahsMyBro
19th January 2023, 11:51
I began taking things apart again last night.
I havent yet gotten to the lower parts of the engine yet so I cant yet see the crank pulley to view the notch there. Also, Im at work so this is a quick note and I cant properly fix the Flickr links for this post.
But for now, a picture of the timing belt at the cam gears is here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/YZ2307mZar
Also, here is a short video of me pressing my finger against the belt. It seems loose to me - should it be tighter?
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/7w14H1Gm51
- Steve
Lance Schall
19th January 2023, 12:01
But for now, a picture of the timing belt at the cam gears is here:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/61383932@N00/YZ2307mZarIs that belt supposed to be tensioned in the picture? It is very loose.
no rotors
19th January 2023, 12:03
Can't tell much because of the angle of the photo, but the belt appears to be very loose.
Edit: Ahhh...Lance beat me to it.
MarbleCanyon
19th January 2023, 19:45
The British have a good saying: "Make haste slowly".
In this situation, it is apparent that the timing belt is not installed correctly. Because so much else is usually done when a belt replacement is undertaken, it seems that doing it over is a huge job, but most of the small stuff is done now (T'stat, water pump, hoses, and so on) Now, I'd remove the rad for good visibility, and the valve cover, plus the rest of the timing cover bits. Install the belt using the instructions you are most comfortable with, then do the tensioning exercise exactly as specified. Now check the timing marks on the two cam cogs, plus the crank cog. Count the teeth between the cam cogs, there should be 19 if my memory serves me correctly. Photograph this from dead on with no camera angle or parallax.
Buttoning everything up now should give you the timing you are aiming for.
And, in North America we have a saying: "When something goes wrong, the first thing you check is the last thing you worked on."
Keldog
19th January 2023, 20:28
Is that belt supposed to be tensioned in the picture? It is very loose.
I agree. It looks the way it would look if the tensioner pulley was missing the spring. I'm countin 20 or 21 teeth between the sprockets. Should be 19. Might want to check to see if the spring is missing.
MK1888
19th January 2023, 20:34
I agree. It looks the way it would look if the tensioner pulley was missing the spring. I'm countin 20 or 21 teeth between the sprockets. Should be 19. Might want to check to see if the spring is missing.
Count again. I get 19.
Lance Schall
19th January 2023, 20:37
In this situation, it is apparent that the timing belt is not installed correctly. To say nothing of the plastic cover that's not screwed down straight.
Keldog
19th January 2023, 20:39
Count again. I get 19.
Please clarify. Which teeth should be counted. All that are between the E and I? :dunno:
NoahsMyBro
19th January 2023, 21:30
Every time I count I see 19 teeth.
The lower timing cover was cracked and badly deteriorated. I think that is why it was crooked when I reassembled. Nevertheless, on Monday or Tuesday morning I ordered a replacement (from Alex T at SNS).
I absolutely replaced the tensioner spring when I put things back together.
BUT I noticed at the time the plastic cylinder that goes around the spring has a ‘lip’ at one end and not the other. I don’t know the purpose of that lip or if I put the plastic cylinder over the spring in the correct direction.
ALSO the timing belt kit included TWO springs. Don’t know where I’m expected to use the second spring. Theorized it was for a different car possibly that shares the same timing belt kit.
Tonight I’m hopefully going to continue taking things apart so that I can get a look at the the timing gear on the crankshaft.
My theory at the moment is:
1) When reassembling, I either forgot to tighten or didn’t tighten enough the bolt on the timing belt tensioner.
2) when I first ran the car in my garage last Wednesday night it was initially good. While driving, because the timing belt was too loose, it skipped some number of teeth.
3) because it skipped, now the crankshaft and cams are no longer properly aligned with each other, are out of sync, and that’s why the car started to seem sluggish and ‘not right’.
Just a theory. I’m looking forward to getting a look at things soon.
gtxhawaii
19th January 2023, 22:03
View of belt teeth is clearer at the end of the video than the start. Slightly different camera position removed background that has no contrast with the belt. These issues usually improve if the phone 'flash' is on, either the photo flash for still, "Flashlight" for videos. Same LED, different programs. I count 19 clearly.
Tension is Loose. Factory manual spec is ~3/8" deflection with 22 lbs (10 Kg) downforce. Which, interestingly, is common to all 3 belts on the front of a Miata engine.
Loose tensioner bearing frame happens several ways. Forgetting may not be as common as frame and bearing position moving while torquing the bolt. I'll redo the spring part if I suspect the bearing frame hasn't kept precise position during the bolt tightening. 3 tries is my current record, which I don't care about. I do care about actual belt tension, which I endeavor to check with the factory deflection.
I don't refit the plastic upper and middle timing belt covers if I even suspect I'll be back soon. I'd thought of sourcing a transverse mounted Mazda B6 valve cover and TB covers Any front wheel or 4WD B6 engine.), which fit together differently, allowing the covers to be removed without unfastening the valve cover. But more likely will just trim the top of the upper timing belt cover just below the edge of the valve cover, accomplishing the same goal more economically of my time and money.
Ignition timing marks are in the Rim of the back edge of the Harmonic Balancer. Maybe 1/32" wide, not as deep. Looks like a tiny jewelers file cut the mark with the thin edge; flat bottom, vertical sides, Way too small for any mechanic's ease of mind. Position (0º, 10º) and number of timing marks (one or two) vary over the NA years. Verify your 0º location on the rim, against the timing scale on the lower timing belt cover, using piston #1 at TDC. Mazda clearly recommends 10º timing advance. 14º is popular for maxing lower RPM torque. (Equal losses above power peak. Smoothest engine determined by old school 'try everything, keep notes', seems from several posters work, to be best at 11.5-12º advance.
Keldog
19th January 2023, 22:05
Every time I count, I see 19 teeth.
I only want to clarify we're on the same page of counting teeth. Perhaps it's the camera angle. If you know how many teeth, then I'm confident that part was done right. We just have to discern why the belt is loose. Let's just see what you find when the cover is removed. I had a tensioner pulley appear to torque down correctly but after a short time, it loosened because it turned out that the threads in the block were stripped and I had to fix it with a helicoil. But that's throwing out too much that may not apply to your case. Get some good pics and I'll bet it will be obvious to another set of eyes.
BUT I noticed at the time the plastic cylinder that goes around the spring has a ‘lip’ at one end and not the other. I don’t know the purpose of that lip or if I put the plastic cylinder over the spring in the correct direction.
I don't think the plastic sleeve is relevant. It mostly serves to keep the spring clean or something.
Keldog
19th January 2023, 22:23
Okay. I recounted the teeth on a larger screen and realize I wasn't seeing the mark on the E cam correctly. 19 teeth. :D
NoahsMyBro
21st January 2023, 13:11
So I'm hesitantly optimistic I can end this saga today and get my baby back on the road.
Spoke to 3MF last night about it. I believe my problem before was that I didn't properly tension the belt, and so it skipped when I took it out for the test drive.
Last night I continued taking things apart again, and began reinstalling the timing belt. I was having a lot of trouble getting the belt on, and gave up for the night. Returned to it this morning and managed to get the belt on, with 19 teeth between the marks on the cam gears.
(SIDE NOTE: I have an enormous amount of difficulty pulling the belt around the cam gears. Is that typical? I'm worried I'm going to damage the belt or cause it to fail prematurely every time I try to install it.]
After I managed to pull the belt around the cam gears and confirmed the 19 teeth between the cam gear marks, I rotated the crankgear clockwise until the notch was lined up with the due-north mark behind it on the engine, the I on the exhaust cam was lined up with the I mark on the back plate, and the E on the intake cam was lined up with the E on the back plate.
Next, I rotated the crank gear the 1 5/6 turns until the mark on the crank gear was lined up with the tensioner mark, and then I tightened the bolt down on the tensioner pully.
The belt still seems to have plenty of movement at the top when I try to push it down with my finger.
I don't know how to measure it, to know how much it deflects at 22lbs of pressure.
Also, underneath my waterpump there is a tiny amount of an orange liquid. That wasn't there when I began this job, and I cleaned everything up pretty thoroughly while working on things and before I put the engine back together the first time. Could that be the 'seepage' that Gates (the timing belt manufacturer) mentioned that is normal? My coolant, before this job and after, is green.
Before I put things together again I'm hoping some of you might chime in with anything you see or think of that I might have missed or done wrong.
Thanks.
Several more pics and videos:
The tensioner pulley:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52640128351_ecf2ba8f49.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocCqcR)
Weird orange goo:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52640384534_c950e9abb8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocDJmN)
Oil leakage - I cleaned everything up before reassembling. Since then I drove the car once, to test, for about 8 miles (7.9 to be exact). I'm disappointed to see this here. Guessing it is leaking from the seal behind the crankshaft gear - I guess the oil pump?
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52640601958_7b4ba3e85a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocEQZu)
Me pressing the top of the timing belt:
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/52640602513_3707dfd262.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ocERa4)
NoahsMyBro
21st January 2023, 14:03
QUESTION about the timing belt, slack, tension, etc...:
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=617275
I've just read the above thread. I've also read the instructions in the garage article (https://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html):
Turn the crankshaft 1 5/6 turns clockwise
And align the timing belt pulley with the tension set mark.
Tension the belt
Loosen the tensioner bolt to apply tension to the belt. Tighten the tensioner bolt to 37-52 Newton Meters.
Turn the crankshaft 2 1/6 turns clockwise
Verify the timing marks are still correctly aligned.
Check belt deflection
Apply about 22 pounds of pressure to the center of the belt between the camshaft pulleys. The deflection should be 9-11.5mm. If not, repeat from the tension setting.
Given that the belt travels a route around the crankshaft gear, then up and around a pulley that is bolted in place, then around two gears that are also bolted in place, finally around another pulley that is bolted in place (but allowed to pull in tighter using a spring during install), and none of these components moves in relation to the cams with regard to the timing belt, why/how does the crankshaft position, cams position, cam lobes, etc... have any bearing on the belt tension?
In the garage guide there are the instructions to rotate the crankshaft to TDC, and to the 1-5/6 mark for setting tension.
In the thread I linked to, there are comments referring to 'fighting the valve springs', or referring to the cam lobes' direction and how that can affect the slack or tension on the belt.
But WHY/HOW do those things affect the tension? All of the relevant gears and pulleys that the belt runs around and through aren't moving in the plane the belt occupies.
??
Kevin M.
21st January 2023, 14:28
You're overthinking it. The spring alone applies the proper tension. Just follow the procedure.
Lance Schall
21st January 2023, 14:52
But WHY/HOW do those things affect the tension? All of the relevant gears and pulleys that the belt runs around and through aren't moving in the plane the belt occupies.There are three ways to change the belt distance between the crankshaft and the intake camshaft. 1) rotate the crankshaft, 2) move the tensioning idler in-plane, 3) rotate the camshaft.
For number 1, the crankshaft does not easily rotate while we are working on the belt tension so we disregard that. It is the only one of the three items that behaves as your discussion above.
Number 2, that's the part you are moving in-plane, changing the length of the belt travel, and hence the tension.
Number 3, the camshaft. The valve springs are back-driving the cam lobes, trying to rotate the intake camshaft, thence altering the belt distance (between the crankshaft and intake cog). In order for the tensioning idler spring to take up the proper position, the tension spring would have to overpower the valve springs to force the camshaft into ideal position. It can't do this so the idler tension would be incorrect.
With the camshaft rotated to an off-cam position, it is not trying to rotate while you adjust the tensioner. There are 4 such positions per camshaft rotation. 1 5/6 crankshaft turns is one such cam positions.
Keldog
21st January 2023, 18:23
There are three ways to change the belt distance between the crankshaft and the intake camshaft. 1) rotate the crankshaft, 2) move the tensioning idler in-plane, 3) rotate the camshaft.
For number 1, the crankshaft does not easily rotate while we are working on the belt tension so we disregard that. It is the only one of the three items that behaves as your discussion above.
Number 2, that's the part you are moving in-plane, changing the length of the belt travel, and hence the tension.
Number 3, the camshaft. The valve springs are back-driving the cam lobes, trying to rotate the intake camshaft, thence altering the belt distance (between the crankshaft and intake cog). In order for the tensioning idler spring to take up the proper position, the tension spring would have to overpower the valve springs to force the camshaft into ideal position. It can't do this so the idler tension would be incorrect.
With the camshaft rotated to an off-cam position, it is not trying to rotate while you adjust the tensioner. There are 4 such positions per camshaft rotation. 1 5/6 crankshaft turns is one such cam positions.
I have no words for such a magnificent explanation. Even an idiot like me understands it. It may be found somewhere else, but this is the first I've seen it. If there were room for it, it should be in someone's signature.
MarbleCanyon
21st January 2023, 20:03
There are three ways to change the belt distance between the crankshaft and the intake camshaft. 1) rotate the crankshaft, 2) move the tensioning idler in-plane, 3) rotate the camshaft.
For number 1, the crankshaft does not easily rotate while we are working on the belt tension so we disregard that. It is the only one of the three items that behaves as your discussion above.
Number 2, that's the part you are moving in-plane, changing the length of the belt travel, and hence the tension.
Number 3, the camshaft. The valve springs are back-driving the cam lobes, trying to rotate the intake camshaft, thence altering the belt distance (between the crankshaft and intake cog). In order for the tensioning idler spring to take up the proper position, the tension spring would have to overpower the valve springs to force the camshaft into ideal position. It can't do this so the idler tension would be incorrect.
With the camshaft rotated to an off-cam position, it is not trying to rotate while you adjust the tensioner. There are 4 such positions per camshaft rotation. 1 5/6 crankshaft turns is one such cam positions.
Thanks for this.
I always wondered why the procedure called for 1 5/6 rotations, and now I understand. I believe it helps when you know the "why" as well as the "how".
gtxhawaii
21st January 2023, 20:24
For a possibly different thought process (nobody thinks exactly like anyone else), once the timing belt is on correctly registered cam sprockets with the crank notch TDC, you have to remove all slack from the top and driver side of the timing belt. I do this with a tool on the intake cam or sprocket, slowly increasing pressure Counter Clockwise (Opposite engine direction when running) till the crank Just begins to move. The crankshaft being the most reluctant to move of timing belt elements, crank cog, and two cam sprockets.
NOT allowing any movement of the intake cam, the idler bearing spring is now working on the only loose belt run, and will tension it correctly. Somehow (one to three additional arms would be nice), the tensioner bearing frame bolt is now torqued, NOT allowing it to move during the torque process, from where the spring pulled it and the belt. Which is harder to do than type. 22 lbs (10Kg) force on the middle of the top belt run will move cams to tighten all belt runs, and the deflection this measures tells you if you did good, or need to back up and retension the belt, and torque the bolt again.
My experience is there is one minimal cam lobe force position in the 4 cycle, 4 cylinder (I configuration) piston engine, no position with no cam lobe forces. Mazda identifies the same position I observe, by placing the cast arrow such that 1 5/6th rotation of the crank from initial cylinder #1 TDC centers on the notch in the back rim of the crank cog. I may have missed other minimal force locations, but Mazda gave us marks for this one. Even here, one cam lobe (set) and valve spring interaction, at the least, is trying to move the belt by way of it's sprocket. Happily, at this minimal cam lobe force position, these forces are not enough to turn the crank, with spark plugs fitted, possibly even if all plugs are out.
If locking the cams together with the wrenches on the cam hexs midway on each cam shaft, wrenches crossed and vise gripped, enough fiddling will get both cams to where there is no slack in either top or driverside run of the timing belt. Or, once top run is tight (only really possible if retaining belt teeth full engagement in each sprocket with zip ties, or clamps), the driver side run is tensioned by turning the crank Clockwise. If using the FM sprocket tool, advancing the crank is the only way to tension the driver side belt run. For this, I strongly suggest zip ties on each belt/sprocket combination, again, to prevent the belt jumping teeth.
NoahsMyBro
22nd January 2023, 10:51
Last night while much of the northeast was tuned in to the Eagles shellacking of the NY Giants, I finished putting together my Miata and took it for another test drive.
It performed pretty much identically to last Wednesday night.
This time I drove for over twenty miles, taking a total of three trips.
So Im going to check the ignition timing and try to correct that.
- Notes:
1) the sharp ziptie I asked about, just behind the CAS? It was wrapped around a wire that leads to a disconnected bullet connector that a kid might have purchased from Western Auto during the 80s. Im betting that wire connected to the alarm siren that was removed from my car prior to my ownership. I have a 96M, remember. Ive removed that evil ziptie.
2) it was difficult but I managed to get to and loosen the lock bolt for the CAS. The CAS itself wont budge though. I dont want to break anything. How can I get the CAS to loosen? Should I spray something along the seam between the CAS and the back of the valve cover? Maybe PB Blaster?
Fwiw, other than the sluggish performance the car seemed to work fine last night. For a single moment I noticed the temp begin to creep up while I was idling in front of my daughters friends house (pick me up at 10:30 SHARP! - Im here. - ten minutes later She strolls out ). Before the temp approached worrisome levels though it began lowering. Im going to burp the coolant and add more if needed.
no rotors
22nd January 2023, 12:55
...it was difficult but I managed to get to and loosen the lock bolt for the CAS.
The CAS itself won’t budge though.
I don’t want to break anything.
How can I get the CAS to loosen?
Loosen (two or three full turns) the two bolts securing the saddle/cap that forms the upper half of the large socket that the CAS fits into.
Then tap the cap gently to break it loose. That should give you some wiggle-room to get the CAS loose.
NoahsMyBro
22nd January 2023, 17:28
Been busy today, didn’t have a chance to reply yet.
@No rotors -
That was the magic key. As soon as I cracked those two bolts loose (not even difficult) the CAS was easy to spin.
Of course immediately after that I needed to leave to bring my son back to school for spring semester so I haven’t actually test-driven the car yet.
I’m looking forward to testing it though.
3MiataFamily
22nd January 2023, 17:55
Hang in there...you are in the home stretch
Lance Schall
22nd January 2023, 18:01
Hang in there...you are in the home stretchEven if you have to pull a Rosie Ruiz.;):cool::wave:
NoahsMyBro
22nd January 2023, 18:15
Ha! I had to look up the name Rosie Ruiz. (I did remember the story after looking it up.)
NoahsMyBro
24th January 2023, 00:01
I'm thrilled and relieved to report that tonight I took my car for another test drive, and my only remaining question is where is the best spot to affix this? :)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52645627851_cc15f26018.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2od7B1P)
After adjusting the timing (ignition timing, by twisting the CAS) the car runs well and feels fine. Other than needing to adjust the idle a bit I think all is good now.
I CAN'T THANK ALL OF YOU ENOUGH FOR HELPING ME THROUGH THIS. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
no rotors
24th January 2023, 00:14
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Another win for the refusal to give up.
3MiataFamily
24th January 2023, 01:16
Congrats....persistence paid off:jump::jump:
As for the sticker...I have seen them on the air box and on the radiator support...just about anywhere under the hood will do.
gtxhawaii
24th January 2023, 04:24
Congratulations on persisting. It is an essential element to any fix.
Not thrilled about the sticker. It strongly suggests both that the engine is an interference design, and that there is any actual known belt replacement interval. Downside of a belt break is a tow home, for most. I've replaced one friends in an unlighted garage, Sundown was our deadline, since we had no electricity or battery lights. Distance of tow counts, but there is no internal mechanism to cause damage. The engine just stops, usually a lot faster than the car does.
A very few factory timing belts have failed under 60k miles. At least one factory original was being left in a running car as a timing belt service life experiment, last post it was about 250k miles, and zoom, zooming. When I had Miatas that young, I started collecting parts when the Oddometer showed 100k. Usually did WP and TB/bearings/seals about 120k.
Lance Schall
24th January 2023, 10:57
I'm not interested in the sticker either. I know who did the last timing belt service, when they did it, when the next one is due, and who will do it too. Me. Every 60,000.
MarbleCanyon
24th January 2023, 13:05
Glad this is over, and hope you are enjoying that feeling of accomplishment.
FYI, my 90 does not have that particular sticker. I don't think it ever did. As Lance says, you know when the belt was replaced, and I bet you never forget!
NoahsMyBro
24th January 2023, 13:38
Glad this is over, and hope you are enjoying that feeling of accomplishment.
FYI, my 90 does not have that particular sticker. I don't think it ever did. As Lance says, you know when the belt was replaced, and I bet you never forget!
Thats for sure!
no rotors
24th January 2023, 15:01
That’s for sure!
Often, learning what isn't the problem is as educational as learning what is the problem.
So you got a pretty good education about timing belts and related bits and pieces.
Todd Barney
24th January 2023, 16:13
Other than needing to adjust the idle a bit I think all is good now.
Have enjoyed the saga.
For fine tuning on the idle, you may want to tweak both the timing and the idle adjustment screw. There can be a bit of back and forth involved. When the idle doesn't change when you remove the paper clip from TEN & GND, you know you've got it. (Tho on my car, that means it's time to turn the idle adjustment screw another 1/4-1/2 CCW to minimize idle droop.)
2002tiitomx5
24th January 2023, 17:11
One of the better instructional videos on mechanical timing setup and check.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KiXRtafIdik
NoahsMyBro
30th January 2023, 11:05
Quick follow-up:
After all was put back together I was noticing a slightly concerning idle problem. When I first started the car, and then every time I showed to a stop, the idle would drop to almost nothing, the engine would feel like it was going to stall, and then after a second or two the issue would rise to normal (around 900rpm).
That problem has magically disappeared. Maybe this was because the battery was disconnected for almost three months, and the ECU needed to relearn? Don’t know.
Car runs great now. Might be noisier than before, that might be my imagination.
———
Yesterday I took on the unpleasant task of recording all of the related purchases. For posterity and for anybody’s voyeuristic curiosity, here are the final numbers:
Moss Miata$165.15Timing belt kit, alternator belt, AC/PS belt
McMaster Carr$60.04Loctite 660, 243
Med Center Mazda$194.92Timing Gear, Woodruff Key, Engine Crankshaft Pulley
Flyin' Miata$44.23Big nose crankshaft bolt, FM crankshaft bolt tool
Rock Auto$45.61Water pump
Rock Auto$64.98spark plugs, spark plug wires
Open Road Mazda of Morristown$136.33thermostat, radiator hoses, hose clamps, Mazda coolant, oil filter
Open Road Mazda of Morristown$18.36small hose clamps
Open Road Mazda of Morristown$6.08thermostat gasket
Auto Zone$47.97Valvoline 10w30 full synthetic oil 5qt, 2 rolls paper towels
Auto Zone$4.87thermostat gasket, $2 donation to St. Jude
Prostock of East Hanover$9.59Permatex grey gasket maker
SNS Mazda Parts (Alex Todd)$20.00lower, middle timing belt covers
Schneider Hardware$15.00(not sure of price) socket adapter to go from 1/8" socket to 1/4" socket
Home Depot$107.457-pc wrench set, 2-pc ratchet wrench set, deck scrubber, 2-pk utility light, Zep driveway cleaner
Home Depot$29.5824mm 12pt wrench, 10" adjustable wrench
Home Depot$43.23paint can opener, hanging work light, led garage ceiling light fixture
Harbor Freight$67.15led work lights
Costello's Ace Hardware$47.42safety goggles, chisel, hammer
Amazon$12.77air filter
Amazon$10.011200grit sandpaper
$1,150.74
-$329.43tools$9.59
$821.31TOTAL COST, MINUS TOOLS$15.00
$107.45
$29.58
$43.23
$67.15
$47.42
$10.01
$329.43
Can’t seem to get the table to format well from my phone; I’ll try to improve it later.
Total cost - $1150.74
Not including tool purchases - $821.31
I think I determined last night there were also about $400 worth of things that I didn’t need to replace and could have eliminated from the above list (spark plugs and wires, for example).
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